Existence of God

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Re: Existence of God

Post by CivBase on Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:06 am

No. I don't follow the chruch because of them trying to add their own little restrictions wherever they please. But, you're not getting into heaven if you don't believe in it.

Perhaps I will have lost out on my only existence... but then, what's the point of existing? That's a risk I'm willing to take.

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Re: Existence of God

Post by KristallNacht on Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:53 am

CivBase wrote:I see a reason. If God does exist, you're going to hell. Am I seriously the only one that sees this?

You aren't the first person to think of that.

It's called "Pascal's Wager"

(further proof everything anyone ever thinks has been thought before)
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Re: Existence of God

Post by Cheese on Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:24 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
CivBase wrote:I see a reason. If God does exist, you're going to hell. Am I seriously the only one that sees this?

You aren't the first person to think of that.

It's called "Pascal's Wager"

(further proof everything anyone ever thinks has been thought before)

Yerp.

>you're not getting into heaven if you don't believe in it.

What if I've hypothetically never heard of it or been raised in a strong... err... viking environment? BY THOR'S HAMMER!!

>Perhaps I will have lost out on my only existence... but then, what's the point of existing?

So do you think everything before eternity is pointless? Joy, love, art, friendship, knowledge, compassion, Halo? As I'm sure I've said - I like this world. It has KFC.

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Re: Existence of God

Post by Toaster on Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:44 pm

CivBase wrote:I see a reason. If God does exist, you're going to hell. Am I seriously the only one that sees this?

What if you're Muslim? Does not the Quran say that only Muslims go to heaven? Why do you chose Christianity over Islam?

Your argument is weak, and a lame excuse for believing in something. "Believe it... just in case."

I'd rather maintain my integrity.

Either way, one cannot simply chose to believe in something. Even if I wanted to, I could not just "choose" to believe in god. My mind is far too rational to make such a blind assumption and submit to faith. You act as if I simply don't like the idea of a god, or an after life. I would be thrilled if it turned out that I will live forever, and never REALLY die. That would be awesome. Unfortunately, I have no reason to believe that, and I can't just tell myself that it's true.

What if I came up to you one day and said "I am your God, and you must give unto me all that you own or you will suffer an eternity in HELL!!!"

Would you give it all up... just in case?

It seems that the fact that all the "events" of the bible occurred thousands of year ago, really helps it to seem realistic to you. The disconnect makes it seem less absurd. That, and the fact that it was probably injected into you from a very young age...

Civ wrote:>Perhaps I will have lost out on my only existence... but then, what's the point of existing?

And what's the point of existing eternally? Helping others exist eternally? At its root, everything is pointless. Get over yourself and enjoy it while it lasts. All the more reassurance to the statement that religion is no more than a comforting assumption, designed to make people feel arrogantly important.
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Re: Existence of God

Post by CivBase on Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:20 pm

Cheese wrote:>you're not getting into heaven if you don't believe in it.

What if I've hypothetically never heard of it or been raised in a strong... err... viking environment? BY THOR'S HAMMER!!
Then you'll just go to hell for lying.

Cheese wrote:>Perhaps I will have lost out on my only existence... but then, what's the point of existing?

So do you think everything before eternity is pointless? Joy, love, art, friendship, knowledge, compassion, Halo? As I'm sure I've said - I like this world. It has KFC.
Yes, it is all pointless without a hope for an afterlife. We are born, a molecule that multiplies constantly. We live, a butch of molecules and atoms moving around, doing their thing, which means that we as people are no more than vessels for these molecules, a sort of communistic government devoid of corruption where the only things that are done are for the good of the body (cells), which thus means that consciousness is no more than a willingness to survive. And then we die, we go back into the dirt and the partials are recycled into new life.

ReconToaster wrote:What if you're Muslim? Does not the Quran say that only Muslims go to heaven? Why do you chose Christianity over Islam?
Why do I choose Christianity? Because that's how I was raised to believe and that's the one I choose to go with. Sure, believe in Islam if you want, but at least you have a chance at a preferable afterlife.

ReconToaster wrote:Your argument is weak, and a lame excuse for believing in something. "Believe it... just in case."
An excuse? Now, where did I say that this is why I believe in Christianity? I'm simply pointing out a reason, nothing more.

However, when faced with this reason, why would you stay atheistic? What good does integrity do you? I'm just putting some things up to discuss here.

ReconToaster wrote:Either way, one cannot simply chose to believe in something. Even if I wanted to, I could not just "choose" to believe in god. My mind is far too rational to make such a blind assumption and submit to faith.
No, you couldn't, because you already have forced yourself into believing that God is irrational, which is why you have the assumption that not choosing something is most rational.

ReconToaster wrote:You act as if I simply don't like the idea of a god, or an after life. I would be thrilled if it turned out that I will live forever, and never REALLY die.
Not when you find out you're going to hell tongue

ReconToaster wrote:That would be awesome. Unfortunately, I have no reason to believe that, and I can't just tell myself that it's true.
That's not my problem, nor is it the problem of any other religious person.

ReconToaster wrote:What if I came up to you one day and said "I am your God, and you must give unto me all that you own or you will suffer an eternity in HELL!!!"

Would you give it all up... just in case?
No, for the same reasons I don't submit to other religions. You're trying to make it seem as though because there are different beliefs, that none can be right. Also, these religions go back much further than any of us can remember, unlike your statement.

ReconToaster wrote:It seems that the fact that all the "events" of the bible occurred thousands of year ago, really helps it to seem realistic to you. The disconnect makes it seem less absurd. That, and the fact that it was probably injected into you from a very young age...
Funny how the same exact thing is done with evolution.

ReconToaster wrote:And what's the point of existing eternally? Helping others exist eternally? At its root, everything is pointless.
So as to not experience infinite torment. Torment on this world is relatively light and will eventually end, but the same can't be said for hell.

ReconToaster wrote:Get over yourself and enjoy it while it lasts.
Yes, because I'm so trying to get others to convert to Christians and spend their lives at Church. You struck first this time.

ReconToaster wrote:All the more reassurance to the statement that religion is no more than a comforting assumption, designed to make people feel arrogantly important.
If that's what you choose to believe. I choose to believe in God. After all, what bad has come of it? You act like I waste my life worshiping God - spending every second praying - which we all know is not true, else I wouldn't be here.

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Re: Existence of God

Post by Cheese on Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:40 pm

Sorry. I'd just like to say that I'm in this not to cripple your belief in a God, Civ; but because I'm enjoying myself and a good debate is always a good way to get to the bottom of yours and others' beliefs. You probably knew this, but apparently 90% of text communication is misinterpreted. Razz


CivBase wrote:
Cheese wrote:>you're not getting into heaven if you don't believe in it.

What if I've hypothetically never heard of it or been raised in a strong... err... viking environment? BY THOR'S HAMMER!!
Then you'll just go to hell for lying.

Hypothetical Razz The question still stands.

Cheese wrote:>Perhaps I will have lost out on my only existence... but then, what's the point of existing?

So do you think everything before eternity is pointless? Joy, love, art, friendship, knowledge, compassion, Halo? As I'm sure I've said - I like this world. It has KFC.
CivBase wrote:Yes, it is all pointless without a hope for an afterlife. We are born, a molecule that multiplies constantly. We live, a butch of molecules and atoms moving around, doing their thing, which means that we as people are no more than vessels for these molecules, a sort of communistic government devoid of corruption where the only things that are done are for the good of the body (cells), which thus means that consciousness is no more than a willingness to survive. And then we die, we go back into the dirt and the partials are recycled into new life.

I don't really see the difference once their is an eternity. If there is a God, heaven and hell, then we're still all those things - just we end up in a different place. And as I said before, and I think Recon has also, is that the human mind has expanded to make all those things all the more important.

Who knows why it is that vibrations in the air can cause our hearts to swell with joy or dispondancy. Who knows why a flourish of red on a white canvass can conjure up such strong sentiments. But the important thing is that they do. And when you think of it like that, isn't it amazing that molecules can come together to make this? Not only to form a working human mind, but the mind of humanity of a whole! A mind that can develop, or ignore concepts such as religion or art. That such powerful emotion can be stirred from these molecules' beliefs? That survival, the ultimate sacrifice for these molecules can be sacrificed for the survival of not only others, but the perpetuation of a concept?

If you ask me, that's just as bloody marvellous as any other concept in this thread. I never rally cared about this kind of thing before, even if it has always interested me. But if I am nothing but a swirling mass of electrons, mostly nothingness, then that is simply awe inspiring.

/vomit

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Re: Existence of God

Post by Toaster on Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:56 pm

Civ wrote:No, you couldn't, because you already have forced yourself into believing that God is irrational, which is why you have the assumption that not choosing something is most rational.

Um, no. I didn't tell myself "STOP BELIEVING IN GOD!" Actually, it really just took a single day of pondering, at the age of 12, to come to the conclusion that "I have no reason to believe in these things," and I stopped praying. I didn't decide to be atheist, or force myself to think the way I do. I came to the conclusion after thinking about it for a while, and I didn't force myself to ignore Atheistic ideas.

Why is it that you follow Christianity?

Civ wrote:Because that's how I was raised to believe

Oh yes, that's right. You were forced to believe it as a child.


Civ wrote:Funny how the same exact thing is done with evolution.

And who hear believes "Evolution" to be an absolute truth?

Civ wrote: No, for the same reasons I don't submit to other religions. You're trying to make it seem as though because there are different beliefs, that none can be right. Also, these religions go back much further than any of us can remember, unlike your statement.

No, I'm saying that if you're going to believe in one religion "just in case," Why not believe in all of them "just in case?"

Civ wrote:An excuse? Now, where did I say that this is why I believe in Christianity? I'm simply pointing out a reason, nothing more.

You did not state it as your reason, but you offered it as a good reason for others to believe.

Civ wrote:However, when faced with this reason, why would you stay atheistic? What good does integrity do you? I'm just putting some things up to discuss here.

Should the entire scientific community stop trying to search for answers because it could be possible that maybe they'll be sent to some outer-dimensional world called hell? Should they just bow down to scripture and give up?
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Re: Existence of God

Post by CivBase on Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:14 pm

I hate two on ones... I always fall behind, and I don't have the time to respond to these right now.

NOBODY POST ANYTHING IN THIS THREAD FOR THE REST OF THE NIGHT! Razz

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Re: Existence of God

Post by Toaster on Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:24 pm

CivBase wrote:I hate two on ones... I always fall behind, and I don't have the time to respond to these right now.

Run and get Rot, he'll help you out.
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Re: Existence of God

Post by Cheese on Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:36 pm

I was thinking about switching sides soon. See what it's like...


But then again, that's probably not the best plan.

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Re: Existence of God

Post by Felix on Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:30 pm

Well, if you go by the most logical conclusion, then you might say God isn't real. But, many strange things have happened to people...not saying it proves anything, just saying.

I personally, believe in a higher being, as it gives me hope. Hope, that someone is looking out for you. Hope, that someone is always there. Hope, when I'm done on my luck to get me back on my feet again.

I believe the purpose of any type of god, is to give people hope for a better tomorrow. That's why I stay out of these arguements, as I do not wish to take away the hope certain people have.
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Re: Existence of God

Post by Gauz on Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:37 pm

Most logical conclusion here: STFU and stop arguing a pointless to argue topic.
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Re: Existence of God

Post by Cheese on Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:43 pm

I don't think it's pointless - and I'm certainly not trying to crush beliefs. I think that arguing your cause is a good way of affirming it. And if someone were to convince me otherwise, then surely having thought it out would leave me with a better belief system that would in the long term be better for me.

Sorry Civ. Muchos reading para ti Razz

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Re: Existence of God

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:06 pm

I'd help Civ out, but I honestly believe that the most logical conclusion one can come to is agnostic, unsure whether or not a God exists. After that, it comes down to personal belief and faith.

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Re: Existence of God

Post by Zaki90 on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:09 pm

ReconToaster wrote:
CivBase wrote:I see a reason. If God does exist, you're going to hell. Am I seriously the only one that sees this?

What if you're Muslim? Does not the Quran say that only Muslims go to heaven? Why do you chose Christianity over Islam?

Actually, that is wrong. As a Muslim. The Quran says all who has good intentions and deeds will go to Heaven. Meaning if your Agnostic, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist and many more, you can still go to Heaven, as long as you have good intentions and good deeds it won't matter.

Ghanda should go to Heaven.

Salvation in Islam is based off deeds and intention rather than faith.

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Re: Existence of God

Post by Gauz on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:21 pm

The answer here lies in faith, you have it or you don't..

If you don't you have your answer, if you do, you have yours. Can it not end at that?
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Re: Existence of God

Post by Cheese on Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:49 pm

Zaki90 wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:
CivBase wrote:I see a reason. If God does exist, you're going to hell. Am I seriously the only one that sees this?

What if you're Muslim? Does not the Quran say that only Muslims go to heaven? Why do you chose Christianity over Islam?

Actually, that is wrong. As a Muslim. The Quran says all who has good intentions and deeds will go to Heaven. Meaning if your Agnostic, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist and many more, you can still go to Heaven, as long as you have good intentions and good deeds it won't matter.

Ghanda should go to Heaven.

Salvation in Islam is based off deeds and intention rather than faith.

Sounds good to me.

What about atheists?

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Re: Existence of God

Post by dragoon9105 on Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:02 pm

Intresting i thought arguments died out like this when somebody finally said you can't prove either side, i personally belive in god, not as a major religion would however

it makes more logical sense that god created the universe, created a beer, sat down in his heavenly recliner and watchs us try to kill each other over and over again. when theirs finally world peace he will turn off the TV set and we will all vanish!!.
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Re: Existence of God

Post by Toaster on Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:53 pm

Zaki wrote:Actually, that is wrong. As a Muslim. The Quran says all who has good intentions and deeds will go to Heaven. Meaning if your Agnostic, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist and many more, you can still go to Heaven, as long as you have good intentions and good deeds it won't matter.

Ghanda should go to Heaven.

Salvation in Islam is based off deeds and intention rather than faith.

I've always been told that the Christian/Jewish/Muslim gods were all the same guy. Upon you telling me what you just did, I can't help but think that they must be separate. Your god is a much more reasonable... entity.


Cheese wrote:Sounds good to me.

What about atheists?

I would assume that the same rules would apply to... us?

As long as we don't go around exercising our lack of morals, we'll be good for 72 virgins?
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Re: Existence of God

Post by dragoon9105 on Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:08 pm

Dont forget the part in muslim religion that if they say "god is great" before they die they go straight to heaven.

All three religions stem off the same basic beliefs

If your good you go to heaven

If your bad you go to hell

There is only one god

You can kill other humans as long as your doing it in the name of god (who is supposably non-violent)

Cant all 3 just join into one super religion with the same values so we can stop killing each other over books and prophets?
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Re: Existence of God

Post by PiEdude on Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:12 pm

Just wanted to say,
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Re: Existence of God

Post by Zaki90 on Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:32 pm

Cheese wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:
CivBase wrote:I see a reason. If God does exist, you're going to hell. Am I seriously the only one that sees this?

What if you're Muslim? Does not the Quran say that only Muslims go to heaven? Why do you chose Christianity over Islam?

Actually, that is wrong. As a Muslim. The Quran says all who has good intentions and deeds will go to Heaven. Meaning if your Agnostic, Christian, Jewish, Buddhist and many more, you can still go to Heaven, as long as you have good intentions and good deeds it won't matter.

Ghanda should go to Heaven.

Salvation in Islam is based off deeds and intention rather than faith.

Sounds good to me.

What about atheists?

Ya. If Ghanda were Atheist it would not make a difference.

The Quran is more of a book full of values rather than laws. I don't wanna go into depth.

Anyway,

I know something that could start this argument. Look up Venomfang X's video on youtube about the proof of god.

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Re: Existence of God

Post by Toaster on Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:00 pm

Zaki wrote:I know something that could start this argument. Look up Venomfang X's video on youtube about the proof of god.

I did as you said... uh huh.

His argument was basically this:

Because the laws of science determine that matter can be neither created nor destroyed, there must have been an all powerful deity who creates/destroys matter.

If there's anything I've learned from past debates on these forums, it's that you CANNOT use scientific principles (i.e. conservation of matter ect.) to argue for either side of the god debate.

The "laws" of science were constructed to help us understand the properties which govern the known, Einsteinian universe. These laws our dimension.

How can we attempt to employ these principles in areas of the cosmos of which we no nothing?

Either way, in context, his argument does not make sense. Because it is impossible to create matter... you need a god to create matter? What exactly is so special about this god that makes him able to bypass what Venomfang seems to think of as "unbreakable laws?"

Further more, under his assumption that the world stated as nothing, a place void of Space, Time, and matter... where did this god of his come from?

You see, you cannot apply Physical science laws to the creation of the cosmos, or the existence of a god. You will ALWAYS end up contradicting yourself.
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Re: Existence of God

Post by dragoon9105 on Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:05 pm

The only theory that doesnt violate itself is just the belief that the universe was always there. but we oviously isnt true as everything has a start.

thats why its it makes sense that god started the big bang then just created the laws that we currently know about to govern matter and energy into the forms we see today. Then thats it, nothing else.

God exists but why would he bother with one planet(earth) when theirs trillions of other systems that have a chance of holding a sentient race.
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Re: Existence of God

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:42 pm

dragoon9105 wrote:
All three religions stem off the same basic beliefs
Very basic. Just like Lysenkoism and Modern Genetics stem from the same idea of genetic material.

dragoon9105 wrote:If your good you go to heaven
Not quite. There are other criteria.

dragoon9105 wrote:If your bad you go to hell
See above.

dragoon9105 wrote:There is only one god
Which differentiates us from Hinduism, Mormonism, and Animism, but puts us in the same boat as several other small, and unsavory, religions.

dragoon9105 wrote:You can kill other humans as long as your doing it in the name of god (who is supposably non-violent)
That is so wrong, I don't know where to begin.

God said in his Ten Commandments:
"THOU SHALT NOT KILL."
Whereas this doesn't mean "THOU SHALT BE A SISSY PACIFIST", there certainly isn't a "KILL EVERYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH ME" clause.

dragoon9105 wrote:Cant all 3 just join into one super religion with the same values so we can stop killing each other over books and prophets?
The Shiites and the Sunnis can't do it. In any case, our worldviews are actually radically different if you drop the whole "They believe in one God" shtick and pay attention to how we believe we should live our lives, and who God even is.

But who is God?

The Truth is, I don't know. Nobody knows exactly what God is or ever was, whether it is Gandhi, Mohamed, Abraham, Moses, or Sirhan Sirhan.

But here's a clue:
1) If he created the Universe, he's not only a dedicated Engineer and Artist, but he is also infinite. Not infinite as in your ordinary garden variety of infinite, but he at least does not view time the same way we do, and does not view the universe the same way we do. Quite possibly the difference between being inside a very advanced Matrix, and being the Architect.

Also, for those of you who wonder what the Hell God wants with us when he created a whole universe, consider DnD players. They will spend years of their lives playing a character of DnD, crafting models and such. It's not being weird (OK, maybe a little bit) but it's a sort of connection you have with something you built, you designed, you made.

It's an engineer thing.
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