Communists vs. Nazis

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Nazis vs Communists

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Wed Jul 22, 2009 2:05 pm

Alright people. Having read "Barbarossa" by Alan Clark, I believe I am the sole expert (Indeed, the sole person informed on this forum about this topic) I believe I am qualified to submit a few points, starting with this one:

Death no more wrote:Read that part no I dont think you did. If Hitler didn't betray Stalin and surprise attack him, Stalin would be able to hold his own and push hitlaer all the way back to Berlin. I'm talking a quick 9 week war here not a 4 year war.
This guy is a frikkin moron. Whoever the doctor was that dropped him when he was born, he didn't drop him hard enough.

Let's look at the events leading up to Barbarossa. Both Supreme Leaders came to power in the thirties, and BOTH sought to rein in the military. Hitler's approach was to double-cross the military, exclude it from politics, and make sure they were subordinate. As a result, all of the military's energy went into perfecting the troops and equipment.

Stalin, on the other hand, killed off anyone who might not have been perfectly loyal, which eliminated a LOT of talent and competence.

Finally, when Russia invaded and occupied Poland, they abandoned the Stalin Line, which was the defense they'd been building for the past few years. When the Germans came a'knocking, they were caught out in the open when they'd trained to fight from forts.

The Germans were using Blitzkrieg, whereas those who had advocated that tactic were killed off in the USSR.
So, when the Krauts attacked, the Russians weren't only caught by surprise, they were nearly defenseless.

Rotaretilbo wrote:I'm actually really torn here. From every aspect of the military perspective, Nazi Germany just roflstomps Soviet Russia. It isn't even funny how hard Germany would have raped Russia if the other Allies hadn't been pressing from the west.

But Russia has a secret weapon: Hitler.
I have to disagree with Rot here. Despite the tendency to demonize Hitler for what he did, he was an amazingly competent politician, and his attention to detail allowed him to micromanage the military on down to the Company level.

During the militarization of the Rhine, the generals insisted that he back down and make a deal with France to withdraw from occupied German territories. He refused, and he was right. During the Invasion of Poland, he issued amendments and countermands to battle plans drawn up by the generals, and he was right more often than he was wrong.

The problem was that assassination attempts and the fact that his subordinates were hearing about coup plots and not doing anything about them drove him into paranoia, which is best explained by listening to "Pink Floyd: The Wall". About 1944, he was off the deep end. But when he was competent, his generals and field marshals were the most rebellious, pursuing their own goals and insisting on driving straight for Moscow.

There were other problems. Deutschland had no central organization for testing out weapons, fuses, vehicles, or electronics. As one Senior General was quoted as saying, "The Army ordered a new anti-tank gun. The Air Force ordered an anti-aircraft gun. The Navy ordered a gun for attacking naval targets and air targets. All three branches worked entirely independently of one another and generally in opposition to each other, and so it happened that orders for the same thing might come from three different sources. As every engineer has a different conception of the same thing, it came to pass that three different equipments were introduced where one might have done"

Also, such an organizing body might have helped in carrying out Hitler's orders. For example, he ordered that the 37mm gun on the Panzer III be replaced by a 50mm L 60, but the lack of a permanent body to oversee this caused the specification to be altered to 50mm L42, which meant that the most successful tank of that period was equipped with a gun of much lower muzzle velocity and range, which would have preserved it's superiority for at least another year.

People call Hitler an idiot for fighting Russia when he hadn't finished in the west, opening up two fronts. HOWEVER, at the time, Britain seemed defeated, France was subjugated, and everyone assumed that the war would be over in a year. Hitler believed that it was time to attack Russia, and many others assumed the same.

Hitler's fault from a informal view is that he died while others, such as Model and Bock (I think) lived, allowing them to tell THEIR side of the story.

Now, if it was just Russia and Germany, each with access to their conquered territories, I believe that Deutschland would have a pretty good shot. They would be able to use their V-weapons against Russian factories, perhaps bringing production of tanks up to parity. They might even have been able to perfect the V-3 artillery station!
The Luftwaffe would not have been crippled by allied terror-bombing (Although they would have been halted temporarily by the One-Year Ban)

The Russians would not have received the needed aid from America, including Ford motor vehicles shipped over by the American Lend-Lease Program. They'd still have tons of men and a lot of production potential, and they would have had the T-34, but I still think they would have either won by the skin on their teeth or they would have lost.

Dud Doodoo wrote: The Germans had air superiority and nearly had nukes that would be launched by missiles.
The German Nuclear program never got off to a good start, and I believe it was scrapped in '43.


Last edited by Rasq'uire'laskar on Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:23 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by BBJynne on Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:52 pm

Dud Doodoo wrote:[img of putin]
LOOK HIM IN THE EYES AND TELL HIM [SOVIET RUSSIA] ISN'T TRUE!

It is not tr- Oh shit I can't!

IT IS TRUE

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Avenged on Wed Jul 22, 2009 10:18 pm

Still technically speaking its called the Soviet Union and Russia when communism fell

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Dud Doodoo on Wed Jul 22, 2009 11:16 pm

Just because they changed their name doesn't mean it's changed it's regime.

From the words of Toaster, "Just look at him."

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Avenged on Thu Jul 23, 2009 11:19 am

I am aware that there still may be that same regime but i am just stating that its called Soviet Union then Russia now end of story

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Ringleader on Fri Jul 24, 2009 8:49 am

This is a thread Tex would make
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by TNine on Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:49 pm

You guys seem to be forgetting Russia's greatest weapon: Winter. Especially with Hitler leading poorly thought-out charges, he would have lost most of his army to winter.

Think about this: Over the years, there has only be ONE succesfuly winter attack in Russia, held by one of Ghenghis Khan's Generals (Tsubodai?).
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by BBJynne on Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:50 pm

Fear the Golden Horde!

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Gold Spartan on Fri Jul 24, 2009 1:52 pm

TNine wrote:You guys seem to be forgetting Russia's greatest weapon: Winter. Especially with Hitler leading poorly thought-out charges, he would have lost most of his army to winter.

Think about this: Over the years, there has only be ONE succesfuly winter attack in Russia, held by one of Ghenghis Khan's Generals (Tsubodai?).

The Germans were quite capable of gettign to Moscow even during winter. But Hitler thought he was going to be in Moscow before Winter. So all of his men were in Summer Uniforms.
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Ringleader on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:21 pm

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Gauz on Fri Jul 24, 2009 10:33 pm

I feel like discussing...

cats more so than nazis...
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Avenged on Fri Jul 24, 2009 11:38 pm

what about nazi cats?????????

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by tiny tim on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:00 am


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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Avenged on Sat Jul 25, 2009 12:55 am

that cat is glorious

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by tiny tim on Sat Jul 25, 2009 1:33 am

why you little NAZI WHORE! traitor. I should pluck out your NAZI WHORE! eyeballs and feed them to the fishes!

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Gauz on Sat Jul 25, 2009 2:26 pm

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by TNine on Sat Jul 25, 2009 7:50 pm

Gold Spartan5 wrote:
TNine wrote:You guys seem to be forgetting Russia's greatest weapon: Winter. Especially with Hitler leading poorly thought-out charges, he would have lost most of his army to winter.

Think about this: Over the years, there has only be ONE succesfuly winter attack in Russia, held by one of Ghenghis Khan's Generals (Tsubodai?).

The Germans were quite capable of gettign to Moscow even during winter. But Hitler thought he was going to be in Moscow before Winter. So all of his men were in Summer Uniforms.
1.) It's near impossible to launch a coordianted attack of high morale troops in the middle of winter, and very difficult to stop disease as well as other essentials.

2.) With this in mind, Hitler would try anyway, and undoubtedly lose many troops unnecassariasly (sp?).
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Avenged on Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:37 pm

Not at all hes not that dumb he just expected to be in Moscow before winter so his troops only had summer clothes he not that dumb i mean he did conquer ALL OF EUROPE

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Gauz on Sat Jul 25, 2009 8:53 pm

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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:11 pm

TNine wrote:
Gold Spartan5 wrote:
TNine wrote:You guys seem to be forgetting Russia's greatest weapon: Winter. Especially with Hitler leading poorly thought-out charges, he would have lost most of his army to winter.

Think about this: Over the years, there has only be ONE succesfuly winter attack in Russia, held by one of Ghenghis Khan's Generals (Tsubodai?).

The Germans were quite capable of gettign to Moscow even during winter. But Hitler thought he was going to be in Moscow before Winter. So all of his men were in Summer Uniforms.
1.) It's near impossible to launch a coordianted attack of high morale troops in the middle of winter, and very difficult to stop disease as well as other essentials.

2.) With this in mind, Hitler would try anyway, and undoubtedly lose many troops unnecassariasly (sp?).
Sigh...
YOU ALL HAVE IT COMPLETELY REVERSED! MIEN GOTT, WHERE THE HELL HAVE YOU LEARNED ALL THIS CRAP!

Hitlers GENERALS wanted to push to Moscow! They weaseled their way around his orders so they could send that armored thrust to Moscow! But Hitler wanted Leningrad to be secluded, he wanted the Ukraine to be secured for it's resources and it's food, and he wanted territory taken around the Russian Oilfields so that the Russian airforce couldn't prevent the Germans from taking the oil.

True, cold-weather gear was lacking amongst the infantry. But the fuel and the shelters that was supposed to keep them going through the Winter NEVER GOT TO THE FRONT LINES, because fuel was so scarce and Partisans were WRECKING the railways and the convoys.

Winter weakened the German Armies, but it was the continuous Russian counterattacks that wore them down, and the lack of supplies and fuel that killed them.
Similarly, cold didn't kill Napolean's army. By the time he got to Moscow, he only had 12,500 men out of one hundred thousand. Why?
Typhoid.
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by czar on Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:21 pm

Avenged117 wrote:that cat is glorious
He/she is a very pretteh kitteh
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Gauz on Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:45 pm

czar wrote:
Avenged117 wrote:that cat is glorious
He/she is a very pretteh kitteh
Agreed
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Avenged on Sun Jul 26, 2009 12:36 am


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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by czar on Sun Jul 26, 2009 2:13 am

Avenged117 wrote:
another pretteh kitteh
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

Post by Yam Head on Fri Jul 31, 2009 7:02 pm

Communism is the very definition of failure!
Better dead, than red!
Communism is a lie!
Death is a prefferable alternative to Communism!
Communist forces detected on American soil. Lethal force engaged!
Democracy is truth! Communism is death!
Tactical assesment, Red Chinese victory: IM-POSSIBLE!
Intiaiting directive 7395: Destroy all communists!
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Re: Communists vs. Nazis

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