Philosophical Discussion Thread

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Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Ziggy on Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:42 pm

I know that this is quite an umbrella thread, covering a lot of issues, but I thought that I need to make the disctinction for the sake of intellectual discussion, as opposed to arguing over which restaurant is best.

The idea of the thread is that I will post a topic, and users are able to discuss it, share their opinions, refute others opinions, and what not.

However, there are some basics that I feel that I need to emphasize:

No attacking other people for their beliefs. If you wish to rebutt a comment, do it in a civilised fashion. Don't just say "OMFG YOU IDIOT YOU ARE SO WRONG".

Type correctly, and spell correctly. It's not a massive request, and it's only going to help you convey your points.

Okay, so the first topic is: Does free-will exist?
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by tiny tim on Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:46 pm

Yes it does. If I punch the light bulb in the lamp next to me, that is my choice. Albeit a bad one because then there would be glass and noble gasses everywhere.

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Toaster on Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:54 pm

Yes, and it's not some kind of spiritual trait. The ability to think for ourselves gives us the ability to do as we please, whether or not those things might have consequences.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Ziggy on Sat Aug 08, 2009 7:56 pm

tiny tim wrote:Yes it does. If I punch the light bulb in the lamp next to me, that is my choice. Albeit a bad one because then there would be glass and noble gasses everywhere.

Is it your choice though? I beg to differ. Your actions are processed subconsciously, then your conscious mind gives the illusion of processing them. So essentially, free will is an illusion of the conscious mind. Your actions are determined by your conscious mind, through a combination of factors including tendencies, environment and mood.

For example, your subconscious mind might throw your clenched fist at the lamp because you have a destructive personality, and then your conscious mind will make it feel as though you have swung your fist on your own accord, however it was entirely subconscious.

The ramifications of these theories are pretty severe, considering that if they were to be true, which I believe they are, then any crime should not be punishable, as it is beyond the conscious mind, and no conscious mind could stop their subconscious mind from doing certain things.

I'm a determinist. Have a read of determinism on wikipedia, because I feel as though I've failed to express what I want to express due to minimal sleep last night. Razz
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Toaster on Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:09 pm

I like that Ziggy. So basically, one part of our brain makes a conclusion based on calculations, while the other rationalizes those calculations? Sort of like how one part of our brain remembers things, while the other side tries to explain what process led us to remember?
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by tiny tim on Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:18 pm

I disagree. Even if it is our subconscious, it is still a part of us so it is our decision. I would consider something not free will if there was someone or something controlling your actions.

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Ziggy on Sat Aug 08, 2009 8:24 pm

tiny tim wrote:I disagree. Even if it is our subconscious, it is still a part of us so it is our decision. I would consider something not free will if there was someone or something controlling your actions.

Your subconscious mind is what controls us. It's our conscious mind, that sort of creates this illusion that we are in fact making these decisions, but in actual fact, it's the subconscious mind which we have no control over.

The conscious mind can process about 2-3 things at any given time, whereas the subconscious mind can process 100 or so. Don't quote me on that, because I'm entirely sure on the number of processes in the subconscious mind, but I know it is drastically larger than the conscious mind.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Nocbl2 on Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:25 pm

Yes, free will exists in the sense that the mind separates itself from the body at a certain point in evolution. Like this:

That brain-fish that developed into humans over 4 billion years once made a decision: Do I eat the close by weeds, or do I go after the sea scorpion?
Of course, each choice had a different outcome. Mr. Fishy thought this: well, the weeds supply me, but not enough to continue the day. The sea scorpion, on the other hand, give me tons of energy, allowing me to live two days without food. That same scorpion, however, is very dangerous. I think I'll try my best with the scorpion first.

And at that moment, the complex decision ended, and the awareness, sapience, and overall sentience tore itself free of it's bodily shackles, and lived to pass on the trait. Today, that same trait still exists. In fact, my brother and friends discussed this:

You can make the CHOICE to pick up a cigarette. You make the choice to drink a beer. You may make any choice you wish, whether the outcome is good or bad. :YooYoo:
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Nocbl2 on Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:25 pm

Yes, free will exists in the sense that the mind separates itself from the body at a certain point in evolution. Like this:

That brain-fish that developed into humans over 4 billion years once made a decision: Do I eat the close by weeds, or do I go after the sea scorpion?
Of course, each choice had a different outcome. Mr. Fishy thought this: well, the weeds supply me, but not enough to continue the day. The sea scorpion, on the other hand, give me tons of energy, allowing me to live two days without food. That same scorpion, however, is very dangerous. I think I'll try my best with the scorpion first.

And at that moment, the complex decision ended, and the awareness, sapience, and overall sentience tore itself free of it's bodily shackles, and lived to pass on the trait. Today, that same trait still exists. In fact, my brother and friends discussed this:

You can make the CHOICE to pick up a cigarette. You make the choice to drink a beer. You may make any choice you wish, whether the outcome is good or bad. :YooYoo: Sentinel
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Zaki90 on Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:34 pm

Ziggy wrote:
tiny tim wrote:Yes it does. If I punch the light bulb in the lamp next to me, that is my choice. Albeit a bad one because then there would be glass and noble gasses everywhere.

Is it your choice though? I beg to differ. Your actions are processed subconsciously, then your conscious mind gives the illusion of processing them. So essentially, free will is an illusion of the conscious mind. Your actions are determined by your conscious mind, through a combination of factors including tendencies, environment and mood.

For example, your subconscious mind might throw your clenched fist at the lamp because you have a destructive personality, and then your conscious mind will make it feel as though you have swung your fist on your own accord, however it was entirely subconscious.

The ramifications of these theories are pretty severe, considering that if they were to be true, which I believe they are, then any crime should not be punishable, as it is beyond the conscious mind, and no conscious mind could stop their subconscious mind from doing certain things.

I'm a determinist. Have a read of determinism on wikipedia, because I feel as though I've failed to express what I want to express due to minimal sleep last night. Razz

I disagree. I don't want to get into religious mumbo-jumbo here ( if you do go to you know the Christanity vs. Islam or Existence of God threads)

God knows what you going to do in advance, but he has no effect on them because you caused them.

I don't think you know what predetermined events means. It means someone planned this. Free will is what sets aside from robots (for now). The robot can only do predetermined events that were programmed into it. Humans and most over intelligent life (cats,dogs,monkeys) act on predetermined things because they were never programmed to do this.

Example:

You have a cat and a robot cat in a obstacle race passing through rocks (predetermined events). The robot was programmed before hand and a sausage was placed at the end of the race for the cat (motive). The race begins and each pass through the rocks. Then 2 big rocks (random events) are placed blocking the cat and the robot from reaching their objective. The cat remembers were the sausage was and smells it, it just walks around the big rock. The robot cat on the other hand has not been programmed for this event and does not reach it's objective.

The cat had the free will to walk around the rock. The robot cat on the other hand was set on predetermined events and could when an undetermined event occurred it could not comprehend.

I sure you would go on to say,"But what if everything was predetermined".

If everything was predetermined, who determined it? If it were predetermined, then God was predetermined but by who? Another thing, but that thing cannot be real because the Bible, Torah, and the Quran said that nothing controls god.Thus,eliminating the everything is predetermined (And if your an Atheist it doesn't really matter because you already knew it wasn't determined.)

And then you might say," And what if some of the some is predetermined and some stuff is not, then we would have free will, not complete free will, but nonetheless freewill.

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Ziggy on Sat Aug 08, 2009 9:46 pm

Nocbl2 wrote:That brain-fish that developed into humans over 4 billion years once made a decision: Do I eat the close by weeds, or do I go after the sea scorpion?
Of course, each choice had a different outcome. Mr. Fishy thought this: well, the weeds supply me, but not enough to continue the day. The sea scorpion, on the other hand, give me tons of energy, allowing me to live two days without food. That same scorpion, however, is very dangerous. I think I'll try my best with the scorpion first.

First of all, that is a subconscious calculation processed by the fish. Fishes don't exactly have a conscious mind that goes "Hmm, what do I feel like today? Scorpion, or weeds?". Their behaviour is entirely instinctual and subconscious.

Same applies to humans, except we have a conscious mind that creates the illusion of free will.

For instance, your conscious mind didn't pick up that beer. Your subconscious mind did, because your taste buds might have developed a strong desire for beer, or you might have obsessive tendencies in your personality that cause you to drink beer, etc etc. Your subconscious mind triggers the muscles to pick up the beer and drink it, and a few thousandths of a second later, your conscious mind goes "Hmm, I might have a beer".

I don't think you know what predetermined events means. It means someone planned this. Free will is what sets aside from robots (for now). The robot can only do predetermined events that were programmed into it. Humans and most over intelligent life (cats,dogs,monkeys) act on predetermined things because they were never programmed to do this.

I don't think you know what determinism is. If you did, you'd realise there's a distinction between predeterminism and determinism. Determinism isn't predetermined. It's simply the theory that everything is caused by something, including our conscious thought processes, in a systematical way. Event A causes Event B which causes Event C and possibly even Event D, etc.

What you are suggesting is that there is a higher entity, or deity if you want, that is determining our lives. That's near impossible, considering that an entity able to process that many different calculations at any given time is just ridiculous.
What I am suggesting is that there is no higher entity, and rather everything is caused by something else, starting from the beginning of time, right up to the present, through a process of events.

A good example of this is the production of sounds. A sound is a byproduct of two things colliding. The sound of knocking on a door is caused by your hard bone hitting the wooden door, creating that sound. Nobody set that sound. There is no entity that decides what sound is made when two objects collide.

And also, the ILLUSION of free will is what sets us aside from robots, and also the differences in complexity in our neural activity. The human brain is 100x more complex than any robot, because no robot is able to truly adapt to its environment and react to speech, and none of them have any real ability to learn, such as how a human learns to talk and walk.

AND no, the cat didn't move through free will. The cat moved because the event of the rock falling triggered the cats subconscious brain to adapt to the situation and move around the rock.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Zaki90 on Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:30 pm

Ziggy wrote:
Zaki90 wrote:
I don't think you know what predetermined events means. It means someone planned this. Free will is what sets aside from robots (for now). The robot can only do predetermined events that were programmed into it. Humans and most over intelligent life (cats,dogs,monkeys) act on predetermined things because they were never programmed to do this.

I don't think you know what determinism is. If you did, you'd realise there's a distinction between predeterminism and determinism. Determinism isn't predetermined. It's simply the theory that everything is caused by something, including our conscious thought processes, in a systematical way. Event A causes Event B which causes Event C and possibly even Event D, etc.

No...
According to Wikipedia:
"Determinism is the view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

Determinism entails that humanity or individual humans may not change the course of the future and its events"

Thus, in your case, your conscious thought processes were determined by a unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Basically, you though this because of something that was determined prior to what happened, or in other words, predetermined.

But an unbroken chain has no end and no beginning, thus it cannot start. It requires something that is not in this chain, but if everything is determined before hand, then it is in the chain. So if everything is in the chain, how can chain of events begin. It would require something that is not determined. But if everything is determined nothing is not determined. Thus the chain cannot exist. The chain is a non-existing circle.


Ziggy wrote:
What you are suggesting is that there is a higher entity, or deity if you want, that is determining our lives. That's near impossible, considering that an entity able to process that many different calculations at any given time is just ridiculous.
What I am suggesting is that there is no higher entity, and rather everything is caused by something else, starting from the beginning of time, right up to the present, through a process of events.

No, I am not suggesting that that deity is not determining our lives because if everything were determined it would have to be determined too.


Ziggy wrote:
A good example of this is the production of sounds. A sound is a byproduct of two things colliding. The sound of knocking on a door is caused by your hard bone hitting the wooden door, creating that sound. Nobody set that sound. There is no entity that decides what sound is made when two objects collide.

It is determined by your brain. You wanted to hit the door this hard, so you did, knowing the harder you knock the bigger a chance of someone hearing this noise and coming to the door.

Ziggy wrote:
And also, the ILLUSION of free will is what sets us aside from robots, and also the differences in complexity in our neural activity. The human brain is 100x more complex than any robot, because no robot is able to truly adapt to its environment and react to speech, and none of them have any real ability to learn, such as how a human learns to talk and walk.

The illusion is not an illusion, it is real. A human learns to talk by looking around and seeing stuff that accumulates over time and the human learns how.

Ziggy wrote:
AND no, the cat didn't move through free will. The cat moved because the event of the rock falling triggered the cats subconscious brain to adapt to the situation and move around the rock.

The cat could have just left. It could jumped over. It could have tried pushing the rock. The rock falling triggered the cat instanteously, and its mind looked at it options and chose which one was most logical. It was free to do anything it wanted when that rock hit the ground.

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Felix on Sat Aug 08, 2009 10:55 pm

Only my will exists, and it shall be done.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Ziggy on Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:11 pm

No, I am not suggesting that that deity is not determining our lives because if everything were determined it would have to be determined too.

Two words: quantum mechanics. That's the only flaw in determinism. It doesn't leave room for quantum physics. I forget the name of the ideology, but there is one that allows for random occurances, and subatomic activity. Subatomic activity is what I believe caused the creation of pretty much everything in the beginning, thus creating this chain which for the most part was governed by determinism and not by quantum mechanics.


It is determined by your brain. You wanted to hit the door this hard, so you did, knowing the harder you knock the bigger a chance of someone hearing this noise and coming to the door.

No, you're missing the point. The sound isn't produced by your brain. It's produced by the collision of your hand and the door. And again, you're essentially proving the theory that free will is an illusion. Your subconscious brain associates the knocking of the door with a reaction, the reaction being somebody answering the door. So it knocks the door. Your conscious mind might feel as though it made the decision to do so, but in actual fact, it didn't. Your conscious mind just creates the illusion of choice. It's a byproduct of sentience.


The illusion is not an illusion, it is real. A human learns to talk by looking around and seeing stuff that accumulates over time and the human learns how.

A human learns to talk by associating phrases with reactions and events. Humans learn by association. You read a book, that's stored in your mind that knowledge. Depending on the usage of this knowledge, it either sticks or it doesn't.
Think of how a dog learns that barking will get a reaction. Pavlovian condition. The dog barks, the owner gives it attention/feeds it/lets it outside, whatever. After numerous occurences, the dog associates barking with attention or food or whatever, so whenever it wants something, it barks.
Again, this is entirely subconscious.
Same thing applies to humans on a subconscious level. We knock on a door because we've made the association from past events that knocking on the door of a house will gain a reaction from the owner. Entirely subconscious. Our conscious mind then notices this calculation and we believe as though we made that decision, when in actual fact, a number of factors contributed to the calculation being made in our subconscious mind.


The cat could have just left. It could jumped over. It could have tried pushing the rock. The rock falling triggered the cat instanteously, and its mind looked at it options and chose which one was most logical. It was free to do anything it wanted when that rock hit the ground.

Yes, but the cat had a subconscious desire for the reward at the end, so it analysed the environment and worked out how to pass the obstacle - on a subconscious level. The desire for the reward outweighed any other desire to run off or do something else, hence why it tried to obtain the reward. Consciously, it had no choice.

Again, the same applies to humans. We are given a variety of foods and asked to pick one. A subconscious desire will make us pick one. Subconsciously, we may want one more than another because we like the taste, or it's the only one we've had out of the variety of foods so we stick with the safest bet and try that. Alternatively, your subconscious mind might have a tendency to try new things, which influences it to try a new food object out of the selection. There are a myriad of different factors that contribute to your subconscious processes.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Gauz on Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:40 pm

Determenism also states that outside forces also predetermine all future outcome of events.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by tiny tim on Sat Aug 08, 2009 11:45 pm

would that be similar to the chaos theory?

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Toaster on Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:25 am

tiny tim wrote:would that be similar to the chaos theory?

No. That's more of the idea that you can never have full control over any situation.

That, and that VERY small occurrences can trigger a chain of events that can have huge reppurcussions.

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Ziggy on Sun Aug 09, 2009 2:45 am

ReconToaster wrote:
tiny tim wrote:would that be similar to the chaos theory?

No. That's more of the idea that you can never have full control over any situation.

That, and that VERY small occurrences can trigger a chain of events that can have huge reppurcussions.


Clever reference.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:08 am

Really, I feel that your point is moot, here, Ziggy, because you purposely dissassociate the subconscious from a person. If our subconscious mind is in control, does that change at all that we are in control? Obviously, I am choosing to write this. Whether I consciously decided to write it or subconsciously decided that this exact mixture of letters and punctuation was the proper response to your posts, I am still in control, because I am both my conscious and my subconscious.

However, more to the point, your theory seems to glance over human stupidity. If we are simply being controlled by a subconscious computer that calculates reactions based on past experience, considering the processing power of the human mind, especially the subconscious, how does that fit with how many absolutely ignorantly stupid people exist. According to your theory, humans should be able to optimize any situation with an appropriate reaction. We would be like self-aware computers. We would not make mistakes, or, if we did, not in the dismal fashion that all humans tend towards. For example, humans know that driving under the influence of alcohol is bad. Pretty much everyone knows that alcohol inhibits your spacial reasoning, and that that inhibits your ability to drive. Further, people are well aware of a running trend in which drunk drivers get into nasty accidents and either die, are seriously injured, kill someone, seriously injure someone, or any combination of those. Therefore, if the subconscious is simply crunching numbers based on past experiences to form a reaction, how is it that drunk driving is still a rampant problem across the globe? Shouldn't our subconsciousnesses, being practically giant super computers capable of calculations that would blow the most advanced computers out of the water, have reasoned by now that driving under the influence of alcohol is something it should not do?

Further, what of spontaneity? Let's use the example of breaking the light in the lamp next to me. If I choose to do that for no apparent reason at all, how is that a reaction of any kind? What did my subconscious supposedly process in order to form a reaction in which I do something completely random. If I were to suddenly do something for no reason at all, which happens more often than you might think, how do you explain it.

Further, if life is a series of calculations made in order to make the optimal reaction to our surroundings, how do you explain creativity and innovation? How do we innovate if, according to your theory, we are fundamentally incapable of innovation because our actions are a series of reactions to that which already is?

(oh, and Zaki, why did you even bring up God and whatnot if Ziggy's entire argument was about differentiating the subconscious from the conscious? Why deal with predeterminism if no one has claimed to subscribe to it yet?)

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Ziggy on Sun Aug 09, 2009 4:36 am

Okay, bugger. I had written an entire rebuttal to your comment then clicked the Back button on my mouse.

Have a read here: http://www.google.com.au/search?q=hard+determinism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

That'll give you an idea, and a clearer summary of what I have been trying to say.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Death no More on Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:21 am

Ziggy wrote:

What you are suggesting is that there is a higher entity, or deity if you want, that is determining our lives. That's near impossible, considering that an entity able to process that many different calculations at any given time is just ridiculous.
What I am suggesting is that there is no higher entity, and rather everything is caused by something else, starting from the beginning of time, right up to the present, through a process of events.
There is god but he is not determining our lives for us. He laid the ground down for the entire universe how it works, whats in it, and of course us. He gave us free will so we could decide what we could do in life, good or evil.

Ziggy wrote:Okay, bugger. I had written an entire rebuttal to your comment then clicked the Back button on my mouse.

Have a read here: http://www.google.com.au/search?q=hard+determinism&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a

That'll give you an idea, and a clearer summary of what I have been trying to say.
Could you maybe specify a page instead of me having to discern the best one from the worst ones? Or discern which would be more relevant from your supposed rebuttal? Maybe you should rewrite it.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Sun Aug 09, 2009 8:40 am

aww shit... where are my sisters books on Nuero-Bio-Psychology when you need them, eh?

She goes to college, and the book she had explained, in-depth, how your brain makes decisions.

Its kinda half and half... Your subconscious mind will make a decision, while your conscious one will decide whether or not to act on it. The only thing is the fact that the subconscious mind can overpower the conscious one if an action is too extreme, such as, say, jumoing off a tall building.

Of course, the sub-conscious mind is also effected by brain chemistry and what-not so it acts a little differently.


Two People stand on the edge of a building.
Their subconscious minds make an analysis.
Is it good, bad? Dangerous, safe? It weighs quite a few factors and makes its decision in an extremely short period of time.

For the first person, their brain and mental state are in top condition. Their conscious mind agrees with subconscious and they back down.

In the other, their brain and mental state are NOT in top condition, and the subconscious mind either percieves the situation in the wrong way or the Conscious mind is allowed to Overpower it.


They are like conflicting sides in your head.

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Nocbl2 on Sun Aug 09, 2009 9:59 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:Really, I feel that your point is moot, here, Ziggy, because you purposely dissassociate the subconscious from a person. If our subconscious mind is in control, does that change at all that we are in control? Obviously, I am choosing to write this. Whether I consciously decided to write it or subconsciously decided that this exact mixture of letters and punctuation was the proper response to your posts, I am still in control, because I am both my conscious and my subconscious.

However, more to the point, your theory seems to glance over human stupidity. If we are simply being controlled by a subconscious computer that calculates reactions based on past experience, considering the processing power of the human mind, especially the subconscious, how does that fit with how many absolutely ignorantly stupid people exist. According to your theory, humans should be able to optimize any situation with an appropriate reaction. We would be like self-aware computers. We would not make mistakes, or, if we did, not in the dismal fashion that all humans tend towards. For example, humans know that driving under the influence of alcohol is bad. Pretty much everyone knows that alcohol inhibits your spacial reasoning, and that that inhibits your ability to drive. Further, people are well aware of a running trend in which drunk drivers get into nasty accidents and either die, are seriously injured, kill someone, seriously injure someone, or any combination of those. Therefore, if the subconscious is simply crunching numbers based on past experiences to form a reaction, how is it that drunk driving is still a rampant problem across the globe? Shouldn't our subconsciousnesses, being practically giant super computers capable of calculations that would blow the most advanced computers out of the water, have reasoned by now that driving under the influence of alcohol is something it should not do?

Further, what of spontaneity? Let's use the example of breaking the light in the lamp next to me. If I choose to do that for no apparent reason at all, how is that a reaction of any kind? What did my subconscious supposedly process in order to form a reaction in which I do something completely random. If I were to suddenly do something for no reason at all, which happens more often than you might think, how do you explain it.

Further, if life is a series of calculations made in order to make the optimal reaction to our surroundings, how do you explain creativity and innovation? How do we innovate if, according to your theory, we are fundamentally incapable of innovation because our actions are a series of reactions to that which already is?

(oh, and Zaki, why did you even bring up God and whatnot if Ziggy's entire argument was about differentiating the subconscious from the conscious? Why deal with predeterminism if no one has claimed to subscribe to it yet?)
of course, Rot epically ends this thread with a massive bomb of text.
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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by Zaki90 on Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:07 am

Ziggy wrote:
No, I am not suggesting that that deity is not determining our lives because if everything were determined it would have to be determined too.

Two words: quantum mechanics. That's the only flaw in determinism. It doesn't leave room for quantum physics. I forget the name of the ideology, but there is one that allows for random occurances, and subatomic activity. Subatomic activity is what I believe caused the creation of pretty much everything in the beginning, thus creating this chain which for the most part was governed by determinism and not by quantum mechanics.


If subatomic activity began the chain. Then the chain is broken. It is not a circle. And it does have an end. Thus, Determinism is wrong.

And then again, these subatomic activity is in the chain, as time is infinite and subatomic activity can cause more activity in others.
Ziggy wrote:


It is determined by your brain. You wanted to hit the door this hard, so you did, knowing the harder you knock the bigger a chance of someone hearing this noise and coming to the door.

No, you're missing the point. The sound isn't produced by your brain. It's produced by the collision of your hand and the door. And again, you're essentially proving the theory that free will is an illusion. Your subconscious brain associates the knocking of the door with a reaction, the reaction being somebody answering the door. So it knocks the door. Your conscious mind might feel as though it made the decision to do so, but in actual fact, it didn't. Your conscious mind just creates the illusion of choice. It's a byproduct of sentience.

The collision of my hand and the door was caused by my brain controlling my hand to hit the door at this certain door. Yes it was caused by my mind but my mind is in full control as I could have just thrown a rock or rung the door bell.

Also, if you've never seen or heard or ever knocked on a door. In a new situation how can the subconscious mind know what to do. It is all up to you.

Ziggy wrote:

The illusion is not an illusion, it is real. A human learns to talk by looking around and seeing stuff that accumulates over time and the human learns how.

A human learns to talk by associating phrases with reactions and events. Humans learn by association. You read a book, that's stored in your mind that knowledge. Depending on the usage of this knowledge, it either sticks or it doesn't.
Think of how a dog learns that barking will get a reaction. Pavlovian condition. The dog barks, the owner gives it attention/feeds it/lets it outside, whatever. After numerous occurences, the dog associates barking with attention or food or whatever, so whenever it wants something, it barks.
Again, this is entirely subconscious.
Same thing applies to humans on a subconscious level. We knock on a door because we've made the association from past events that knocking on the door of a house will gain a reaction from the owner. Entirely subconscious. Our conscious mind then notices this calculation and we believe as though we made that decision, when in actual fact, a number of factors contributed to the calculation being made in our subconscious mind.

So, when a baby learns to walk, it associates the foot with the ground? A baby learns by trial and error. It sees its parents and tries what they do. They try over and over again until they get it right, they are using there mind to do it.

Also, I have a thing with hot stoves. Even though I know it will burn me, I'll touch it. It burns me, and I touch it again. Also, curiosity can not be used with the subconscious mind. Your subconscious mind does not control your all your actions.

Ziggy wrote:

The cat could have just left. It could jumped over. It could have tried pushing the rock. The rock falling triggered the cat instanteously, and its mind looked at it options and chose which one was most logical. It was free to do anything it wanted when that rock hit the ground.

Yes, but the cat had a subconscious desire for the reward at the end, so it analysed the environment and worked out how to pass the obstacle - on a subconscious level. The desire for the reward outweighed any other desire to run off or do something else, hence why it tried to obtain the reward. Consciously, it had no choice.

It had the choice. Look at people who are on a hunger strike. They have the ability to go and walk and get a hotdog, but they don't. There subconscious mind is telling them to eat, but they have the ability to think on there own.


Ziggy wrote:
Again, the same applies to humans. We are given a variety of foods and asked to pick one. A subconscious desire will make us pick one. Subconsciously, we may want one more than another because we like the taste, or it's the only one we've had out of the variety of foods so we stick with the safest bet and try that. Alternatively, your subconscious mind might have a tendency to try new things, which influences it to try a new food object out of the selection. There are a myriad of different factors that contribute to your subconscious processes.

No, the subconsious mind have no clue what this food might taste like. It is up to you which new food you need. And even then you can just walk out of the grocery store and sit in the car for no reason.


Last edited by Zaki90 on Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

Post by kslidz on Sun Aug 09, 2009 11:10 am

no free will does not exist, yet our perception of time makes us believe, since we do not know what happens next, that we have a choice


heres why we have none



progression takes time
outside of time their is no progression
time is not inside of time
therefore time does not progress
our perception IN time progresses

no progression means that it will not change
if time does not change then it is as complete as it will ever be and if it is complete we cannot change it
if we cannot change anything we have no choice

because choice requires change

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Re: Philosophical Discussion Thread

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