Philosophical Discussion Thread

[Ziggy]

I know that this is quite an umbrella thread, covering a lot of issues, but I thought that I need to make the disctinction for the sake of intellectual discussion, as opposed to arguing over which restaurant is best.

The idea of the thread is that I will post a topic, and users are able to discuss it, share their opinions, refute others opinions, and what not.

However, there are some basics that I feel that I need to emphasize:

No attacking other people for their beliefs. If you wish to rebutt a comment, do it in a civilised fashion. Don't just say "OMFG YOU IDIOT YOU ARE SO WRONG".

Type correctly, and spell correctly. It's not a massive request, and it's only going to help you convey your points.

Okay, so the first topic is: Does free-will exist?

[tiny tim]

Yes it does. If I punch the light bulb in the lamp next to me, that is my choice. Albeit a bad one because then there would be glass and noble gasses everywhere.

[ReconToaster]

Yes, and it's not some kind of spiritual trait. The ability to think for ourselves gives us the ability to do as we please, whether or not those things might have consequences.

[Ziggy]

Yes it does. If I punch the light bulb in the lamp next to me, that is my choice. Albeit a bad one because then there would be glass and noble gasses everywhere.

Is it your choice though? I beg to differ. Your actions are processed subconsciously, then your conscious mind gives the illusion of processing them. So essentially, free will is an illusion of the conscious mind. Your actions are determined by your conscious mind, through a combination of factors including tendencies, environment and mood.

For example, your subconscious mind might throw your clenched fist at the lamp because you have a destructive personality, and then your conscious mind will make it feel as though you have swung your fist on your own accord, however it was entirely subconscious.

The ramifications of these theories are pretty severe, considering that if they were to be true, which I believe they are, then any crime should not be punishable, as it is beyond the conscious mind, and no conscious mind could stop their subconscious mind from doing certain things.

I'm a determinist. Have a read of determinism on wikipedia, because I feel as though I've failed to express what I want to express due to minimal sleep last night.

[ReconToaster]

I like that Ziggy. So basically, one part of our brain makes a conclusion based on calculations, while the other rationalizes those calculations? Sort of like how one part of our brain remembers things, while the other side tries to explain what process led us to remember?

[tiny tim]

I disagree. Even if it is our subconscious, it is still a part of us so it is our decision. I would consider something not free will if there was someone or something controlling your actions.

[Ziggy]

I disagree. Even if it is our subconscious, it is still a part of us so it is our decision. I would consider something not free will if there was someone or something controlling your actions.

Your subconscious mind is what controls us. It's our conscious mind, that sort of creates this illusion that we are in fact making these decisions, but in actual fact, it's the subconscious mind which we have no control over.

The conscious mind can process about 2-3 things at any given time, whereas the subconscious mind can process 100 or so. Don't quote me on that, because I'm entirely sure on the number of processes in the subconscious mind, but I know it is drastically larger than the conscious mind.

[Nocbl2]

Yes, free will exists in the sense that the mind separates itself from the body at a certain point in evolution. Like this:

That brain-fish that developed into humans over 4 billion years once made a decision: Do I eat the close by weeds, or do I go after the sea scorpion?
Of course, each choice had a different outcome. Mr. Fishy thought this: well, the weeds supply me, but not enough to continue the day. The sea scorpion, on the other hand, give me tons of energy, allowing me to live two days without food. That same scorpion, however, is very dangerous. I think I'll try my best with the scorpion first.

And at that moment, the complex decision ended, and the awareness, sapience, and overall sentience tore itself free of it's bodily shackles, and lived to pass on the trait. Today, that same trait still exists. In fact, my brother and friends discussed this:

You can make the CHOICE to pick up a cigarette. You make the choice to drink a beer. You may make any choice you wish, whether the outcome is good or bad. :YooYoo:

[Nocbl2]

Yes, free will exists in the sense that the mind separates itself from the body at a certain point in evolution. Like this:

That brain-fish that developed into humans over 4 billion years once made a decision: Do I eat the close by weeds, or do I go after the sea scorpion?
Of course, each choice had a different outcome. Mr. Fishy thought this: well, the weeds supply me, but not enough to continue the day. The sea scorpion, on the other hand, give me tons of energy, allowing me to live two days without food. That same scorpion, however, is very dangerous. I think I'll try my best with the scorpion first.

And at that moment, the complex decision ended, and the awareness, sapience, and overall sentience tore itself free of it's bodily shackles, and lived to pass on the trait. Today, that same trait still exists. In fact, my brother and friends discussed this:

You can make the CHOICE to pick up a cigarette. You make the choice to drink a beer. You may make any choice you wish, whether the outcome is good or bad. :YooYoo:

[Zaki90]

Yes it does. If I punch the light bulb in the lamp next to me, that is my choice. Albeit a bad one because then there would be glass and noble gasses everywhere.

Is it your choice though? I beg to differ. Your actions are processed subconsciously, then your conscious mind gives the illusion of processing them. So essentially, free will is an illusion of the conscious mind. Your actions are determined by your conscious mind, through a combination of factors including tendencies, environment and mood.

For example, your subconscious mind might throw your clenched fist at the lamp because you have a destructive personality, and then your conscious mind will make it feel as though you have swung your fist on your own accord, however it was entirely subconscious.

The ramifications of these theories are pretty severe, considering that if they were to be true, which I believe they are, then any crime should not be punishable, as it is beyond the conscious mind, and no conscious mind could stop their subconscious mind from doing certain things.

I'm a determinist. Have a read of determinism on wikipedia, because I feel as though I've failed to express what I want to express due to minimal sleep last night.

I disagree. I don't want to get into religious mumbo-jumbo here ( if you do go to you know the Christanity vs. Islam or Existence of God threads)

God knows what you going to do in advance, but he has no effect on them because you caused them.

I don't think you know what predetermined events means. It means someone planned this. Free will is what sets aside from robots (for now). The robot can only do predetermined events that were programmed into it. Humans and most over intelligent life (cats,dogs,monkeys) act on predetermined things because they were never programmed to do this.

Example:

You have a cat and a robot cat in a obstacle race passing through rocks (predetermined events). The robot was programmed before hand and a sausage was placed at the end of the race for the cat (motive). The race begins and each pass through the rocks. Then 2 big rocks (random events) are placed blocking the cat and the robot from reaching their objective. The cat remembers were the sausage was and smells it, it just walks around the big rock. The robot cat on the other hand has not been programmed for this event and does not reach it's objective.

The cat had the free will to walk around the rock. The robot cat on the other hand was set on predetermined events and could when an undetermined event occurred it could not comprehend.

I sure you would go on to say,"But what if everything was predetermined".

If everything was predetermined, who determined it? If it were predetermined, then God was predetermined but by who? Another thing, but that thing cannot be real because the Bible, Torah, and the Quran said that nothing controls god.Thus,eliminating the everything is predetermined (And if your an Atheist it doesn't really matter because you already knew it wasn't determined.)

And then you might say," And what if some of the some is predetermined and some stuff is not, then we would have free will, not complete free will, but nonetheless freewill.

[Ziggy]

That brain-fish that developed into humans over 4 billion years once made a decision: Do I eat the close by weeds, or do I go after the sea scorpion?
Of course, each choice had a different outcome. Mr. Fishy thought this: well, the weeds supply me, but not enough to continue the day. The sea scorpion, on the other hand, give me tons of energy, allowing me to live two days without food. That same scorpion, however, is very dangerous. I think I'll try my best with the scorpion first.

First of all, that is a subconscious calculation processed by the fish. Fishes don't exactly have a conscious mind that goes "Hmm, what do I feel like today? Scorpion, or weeds?". Their behaviour is entirely instinctual and subconscious.

Same applies to humans, except we have a conscious mind that creates the illusion of free will.

For instance, your conscious mind didn't pick up that beer. Your subconscious mind did, because your taste buds might have developed a strong desire for beer, or you might have obsessive tendencies in your personality that cause you to drink beer, etc etc. Your subconscious mind triggers the muscles to pick up the beer and drink it, and a few thousandths of a second later, your conscious mind goes "Hmm, I might have a beer".

I don't think you know what predetermined events means. It means someone planned this. Free will is what sets aside from robots (for now). The robot can only do predetermined events that were programmed into it. Humans and most over intelligent life (cats,dogs,monkeys) act on predetermined things because they were never programmed to do this.

I don't think you know what determinism is. If you did, you'd realise there's a distinction between predeterminism and determinism. Determinism isn't predetermined. It's simply the theory that everything is caused by something, including our conscious thought processes, in a systematical way. Event A causes Event B which causes Event C and possibly even Event D, etc.

What you are suggesting is that there is a higher entity, or deity if you want, that is determining our lives. That's near impossible, considering that an entity able to process that many different calculations at any given time is just ridiculous.
What I am suggesting is that there is no higher entity, and rather everything is caused by something else, starting from the beginning of time, right up to the present, through a process of events.

A good example of this is the production of sounds. A sound is a byproduct of two things colliding. The sound of knocking on a door is caused by your hard bone hitting the wooden door, creating that sound. Nobody set that sound. There is no entity that decides what sound is made when two objects collide.

And also, the ILLUSION of free will is what sets us aside from robots, and also the differences in complexity in our neural activity. The human brain is 100x more complex than any robot, because no robot is able to truly adapt to its environment and react to speech, and none of them have any real ability to learn, such as how a human learns to talk and walk.

AND no, the cat didn't move through free will. The cat moved because the event of the rock falling triggered the cats subconscious brain to adapt to the situation and move around the rock.

[Zaki90]

I don't think you know what predetermined events means. It means someone planned this. Free will is what sets aside from robots (for now). The robot can only do predetermined events that were programmed into it. Humans and most over intelligent life (cats,dogs,monkeys) act on predetermined things because they were never programmed to do this.

I don't think you know what determinism is. If you did, you'd realise there's a distinction between predeterminism and determinism. Determinism isn't predetermined. It's simply the theory that everything is caused by something, including our conscious thought processes, in a systematical way. Event A causes Event B which causes Event C and possibly even Event D, etc.

No...
According to Wikipedia:
"Determinism is the view that every event, including human cognition, behavior, decision, and action, is causally determined by an unbroken chain of prior occurrences.

Determinism entails that humanity or individual humans may not change the course of the future and its events"

Thus, in your case, your conscious thought processes were determined by a unbroken chain of prior occurrences. Basically, you though this because of something that was determined prior to what happened, or in other words, predetermined.

But an unbroken chain has no end and no beginning, thus it cannot start. It requires something that is not in this chain, but if everything is determined before hand, then it is in the chain. So if everything is in the chain, how can chain of events begin. It would require something that is not determined. But if everything is determined nothing is not determined. Thus the chain cannot exist. The chain is a non-existing circle.

What you are suggesting is that there is a higher entity, or deity if you want, that is determining our lives. That's near impossible, considering that an entity able to process that many different calculations at any given time is just ridiculous.
What I am suggesting is that there is no higher entity, and rather everything is caused by something else, starting from the beginning of time, right up to the present, through a process of events.

No, I am not suggesting that that deity is not determining our lives because if everything were determined it would have to be determined too.

A good example of this is the production of sounds. A sound is a byproduct of two things colliding. The sound of knocking on a door is caused by your hard bone hitting the wooden door, creating that sound. Nobody set that sound. There is no entity that decides what sound is made when two objects collide.

It is determined by your brain. You wanted to hit the door this hard, so you did, knowing the harder you knock the bigger a chance of someone hearing this noise and coming to the door.

And also, the ILLUSION of free will is what sets us aside from robots, and also the differences in complexity in our neural activity. The human brain is 100x more complex than any robot, because no robot is able to truly adapt to its environment and react to speech, and none of them have any real ability to learn, such as how a human learns to talk and walk.

The illusion is not an illusion, it is real. A human learns to talk by looking around and seeing stuff that accumulates over time and the human learns how.

AND no, the cat didn't move through free will. The cat moved because the event of the rock falling triggered the cats subconscious brain to adapt to the situation and move around the rock.

The cat could have just left. It could jumped over. It could have tried pushing the rock. The rock falling triggered the cat instanteously, and its mind looked at it options and chose which one was most logical. It was free to do anything it wanted when that rock hit the ground.

[Felix]

Only my will exists, and it shall be done.

[Ziggy]

No, I am not suggesting that that deity is not determining our lives because if everything were determined it would have to be determined too.

Two words: quantum mechanics. That's the only flaw in determinism. It doesn't leave room for quantum physics. I forget the name of the ideology, but there is one that allows for random occurances, and subatomic activity. Subatomic activity is what I believe caused the creation of pretty much everything in the beginning, thus creating this chain which for the most part was governed by determinism and not by quantum mechanics.

It is determined by your brain. You wanted to hit the door this hard, so you did, knowing the harder you knock the bigger a chance of someone hearing this noise and coming to the door.

No, you're missing the point. The sound isn't produced by your brain. It's produced by the collision of your hand and the door. And again, you're essentially proving the theory that free will is an illusion. Your subconscious brain associates the knocking of the door with a reaction, the reaction being somebody answering the door. So it knocks the door. Your conscious mind might feel as though it made the decision to do so, but in actual fact, it didn't. Your conscious mind just creates the illusion of choice. It's a byproduct of sentience.

The illusion is not an illusion, it is real. A human learns to talk by looking around and seeing stuff that accumulates over time and the human learns how.

A human learns to talk by associating phrases with reactions and events. Humans learn by association. You read a book, that's stored in your mind that knowledge. Depending on the usage of this knowledge, it either sticks or it doesn't.
Think of how a dog learns that barking will get a reaction. Pavlovian condition. The dog barks, the owner gives it attention/feeds it/lets it outside, whatever. After numerous occurences, the dog associates barking with attention or food or whatever, so whenever it wants something, it barks.
Again, this is entirely subconscious.
Same thing applies to humans on a subconscious level. We knock on a door because we've made the association from past events that knocking on the door of a house will gain a reaction from the owner. Entirely subconscious. Our conscious mind then notices this calculation and we believe as though we made that decision, when in actual fact, a number of factors contributed to the calculation being made in our subconscious mind.

The cat could have just left. It could jumped over. It could have tried pushing the rock. The rock falling triggered the cat instanteously, and its mind looked at it options and chose which one was most logical. It was free to do anything it wanted when that rock hit the ground.

Yes, but the cat had a subconscious desire for the reward at the end, so it analysed the environment and worked out how to pass the obstacle - on a subconscious level. The desire for the reward outweighed any other desire to run off or do something else, hence why it tried to obtain the reward. Consciously, it had no choice.

Again, the same applies to humans. We are given a variety of foods and asked to pick one. A subconscious desire will make us pick one. Subconsciously, we may want one more than another because we like the taste, or it's the only one we've had out of the variety of foods so we stick with the safest bet and try that. Alternatively, your subconscious mind might have a tendency to try new things, which influences it to try a new food object out of the selection. There are a myriad of different factors that contribute to your subconscious processes.

[Gauz]

Determenism also states that outside forces also predetermine all future outcome of events.