Re: R&D HL2 Mod

by Zaki90 on Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:02 am

Angatar wrote:1. You call mods total conversions, which have little to do with the actual game. It's more like using the engine.
2. We're arguing about the game, not mods. Would it be fair to say that Halo sucked because it has kids playing it?
3. Halo PC isn't even close to be free.

R&D was not a total conversion and is still considered one of the greatest mods of Half Life 2.

by **Rotaretilbo** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:21 am

Angatar wrote:1. You call mods total conversions, which have little to do with the actual game. It's more like using the engine.

That's not true. While total conversions are mods, I liked Rasq's definition of a mod being any modification to a game that added content which significantly affected gameplay in some way. R&D was essentially a series of new single player maps for Half-Life 2. It affected gameplay, but was not even close to a total conversion.

Angatar wrote:2. We're arguing about the game, not mods. Would it be fair to say that Halo sucked because it has kids playing it?

As I already said, moddability is a perfectly acceptable way to judge a game, because it is a feature of the game. Half-Life has always been highly moddable, and this was especially true for Half-Life 2. This is specifically a feature of the game that Valve incorporates into all of its games. Halo has always been not very moddable, and this was especially true for all Halo games released for Xbox/Xbox 360. Bungie as a company has a very strict no modding policy for Halo on the console, and has never supported modding on the PC, which has to be done through third party tools and mods. Moddability is a sub feature that falls under replayability (like how animations and frame rate fall under graphics), and just like comparing games by graphics, comparing games by replayability is an acceptable way to judge games.

Angatar wrote:3. Halo PC isn't even close to be free.

You'll have to forgive me. When I see CE, I usually assume Combat Evolved. If you meant that Halo Custom Edition is free when you said

Angatar wrote:Halo CE is free. Ha.

then I'd just like to point out that so are all of the SDKs and resources for modding on the source engine, and so are almost all of the mods, with a few exceptions of mods that became so popular that Valve picked them up (like Counter Strike, Day of Defeat, and Garry's Mod).

by **Angatar** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 5:37 am

I really love how much you change your views. You first say that mods are huge projects that take months and years to complete, then you say it's even the smallest change.

by **Rotaretilbo** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:31 am

Where did I say it was the smallest challenge? Mods like R&D do take months, even years to complete. Now, Valve makes it much easier to do by providing lots of help and tools, but it is still a big commitment. Even if you're only going to add a few weapons, or maybe a vehicle, or just make one new map, it takes time time. Weapons and vehicles have to be modeled and then skinned, and then loaded into the game. Map making is a whole nother beast. I did say that it would only take me a week to run through the tutorial of the L4D map maker, Hammer, but that doesn't mean that I could turn out original maps of my own design in a week.

by **Angatar** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:00 am

Actually you need to model it, unwrap it, create the texture, apply it, animate it, export it, tag it.

And I said the smallest change, not the smallest challenge.

by **Rotaretilbo** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 7:15 am

Angatar wrote:Actually you need to model it, unwrap it, create the texture, apply it, animate it, export it, tag it.

Forgive me if I summarized, but you aren't helping yourself, here. I was arguing that it would take time to make even a small mod that only introduces a few new weapons or vehicles, and you're pointing out that it is more complex and would thus take longer than what I had originally said.

Angatar wrote:And I said the smallest change, not the smallest challenge.

Oh, apologies.

Well then, you must have missed the "significantly affects gameplay in some way" part of Rasq's definition of a mod.

by **Angatar** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 6:22 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Angatar wrote:Actually you need to model it, unwrap it, create the texture, apply it, animate it, export it, tag it.

Forgive me if I summarized, but you aren't helping yourself, here. I was arguing that it would take time to make even a small mod that only introduces a few new weapons or vehicles, and you're pointing out that it is more complex and would thus take longer than what I had originally said.

Angatar wrote:And I said the smallest change, not the smallest challenge.

Oh, apologies.

Well then, you must have missed the "significantly affects gameplay in some way" part of Rasq's definition of a mod.

1. I was pointing out that making a completely new weapon is that hard. If I do anything to the gun and put it in-game it's a mod.
2. It doesn't need to significantly affect gameplay at all. I can change the Assualt Rifle model into the SMG one and it's a mod.

by **Rotaretilbo** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 9:01 pm

Angatar wrote:1. I was pointing out that making a completely new weapon is that hard. If I do anything to the gun and put it in-game it's a mod.

Which, as I already said, isn't helping your case. I'm the one arguing that modding is hard. Razz

Angatar wrote:2. It doesn't need to significantly affect gameplay at all. I can change the Assualt Rifle model into the SMG one and it's a mod.

But it would be so only in name. A true mod adds content that significantly affects gameplay in some way. If you're going to hide behind the technical definition of modification, then this argument is over.

by **Angatar** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:05 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Angatar wrote:1. I was pointing out that making a completely new weapon is that hard. If I do anything to the gun and put it in-game it's a mod.

Which, as I already said, isn't helping your case. I'm the one arguing that modding is hard.

Eh shut up. I typed it early in the morning and made a mistake by leaving out my argument. Basically, all I have to do is make a mod is open the weapon file, change a value by smashing my keyboard, then placing and importing it ingame. Not that hard.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Angatar wrote:2. It doesn't need to significantly affect gameplay at all. I can change the Assualt Rifle model into the SMG one and it's a mod.

But it would be so only in name. A true mod adds content that significantly affects gameplay in some way. If you're going to hide behind the technical definition of modification, then this argument is over.

So because I'm arguing what's right, I'm wrong? lolwut?

by **Rotaretilbo** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:17 pm

You're hiding behind a technical definition because you know you're wrong.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:OK, how about we define a mod as a modification to a game which adds content (Which may have already been in the game, see Juggernauts and flamethrowers), but it significantly affects gameplay or style.

On page 2, we had agreed to define mods as above. You know what I mean when I say mod, but you can't refute my points unless you use a different definition.

by **Angatar** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:23 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote: You're hiding behind a technical definition because you know you're wrong.

I've been arguing this for the entire time, I cannot be wrong about it.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
On page 2, we had agreed to define mods as above. You know what I mean when I say mod, but you can't refute my points unless you use a different definition.

And you can't refute mine unless you use your definition.

by **Rotaretilbo** on Sat Sep 26, 2009 10:29 pm

Angatar wrote:I've been arguing this for the entire time, I cannot be wrong about it.

Your original argument was to suggest that mods were easy to make, implying that Research and Development was not difficult to make. You knew clearly, at that time, what I was talking about when I used the word mod. You didn't start arguing the technicality until it became apparent that you were wrong.

Angatar wrote:And you can't refute mine unless you use your definition.

I don't have to refute yours, Angatar, because by hiding behind that technical definition, any point you've made about how Half-Life is not better than Halo due to moddability is void. I know what I'm talking about when I say mod, you know what I'm talking about when I say mod, and everyone else knows what I'm talking about when I say mod, so, as I said, this argument is over.