Re: Homosexuality in Religion

by **Rotaretilbo** on Tue Nov 17, 2009 1:48 am

kslidz wrote:free will is very debatable
i land on the predestined in every aspect of life part

If God preordains every action we have and there is no free will, then God specifically damns each person that goes to Hell to Hell, which goes against God wanting everyone to go to Heaven (since he could simply preordain that).

by kslidz on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:13 am

well if we are going to debate this we should start another thread so if it goes past this comment then i will but

http://www.reformationtheology.com/2005/10/understanding_2_peter_39_by_pa.php

check that out and see why i disagree with your assumption and I have a counter passage

please dissect romans 8:9

by **Rotaretilbo** on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:22 am

Romans 8:9? It talks about how Christians are controlled by the Spirit rather than by their sinful nature, and goes on to say that those without the Spirit are not of Christ. It has nothing to do with free will or a lack thereof. If anything, the only thing you could gather from such a passage is that Christians give up free will upon accepting Christ. But since we continue to sin, this cannot be so. Rather, the passage seems to say that when one becomes a Christian, he is no longer a slave to his sinful nature, because the Spirit has entered him and acts as our conscience.

by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:24 am

Felix wrote:Eh. We can never truely understand if God, god(s) or anything of a higher being hates gay people. Human error may play a role in many bibilcal text claiming that God and the like hate gays.

My take on the subject, aside from the historical accuracy of the bible:
If an all-powerful God was to go to the trouble of giving us his word and telling us what to do, he'd probably go to the trouble of making sure that his Word remains uncorrupted.

Felix wrote:One thing I would like to point out is, there is no "direct" way to heaven(if my teachings are correct) unless you are a saint. We all end up in purgatory(but I'm guessing you go directly to hell for commeting certain crimes).

Is this what you've been taught, or what you've decided from the sidelines?
(Note that I'm not asking "Do you just believe that because your parents believe it?" I'm asking something entirely different)

Anyhow, when I was young... I kept getting Purgatory and Constipation mixed up. It was embarrassing.

Felix wrote:Me, personally, I am still iffy on if there is a God or not, but if a God were to be "real"(I use quotations as real may be an entirely different concepts to a God) I doubt he would bestow destruction upon his/her subjects. Why give free will if one can not use it?(to an extent of course)

Well, here's a microcosm: In Spore, it's great when the little creatures do what you want them to do without a lot of prodding.
If they were programmed to do EXACTLY what you want them to, down to the letter, then it would not only dissatisfying to you, but unfair to them. They'd be little more than calculators.

by **KrAzY** on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:32 am

I think the point felix was making... to continue with your metaphor...

in spore... if they don't do EXACTLY what you tell them... you don't blow up the planet...

free will is not a "gift" nor is it free if that will is punished for not acting like a calculator

by LeafyOwNu2 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:37 am

Yes I understand that all sins will cause you to go to hell. But the real question is should homosexuality be considered a sin?

Is a man loving a man any different than a man loving a woman? I have seen gay couples who have been with each other for their whole lives. I do not think its a perversion.

I don't like the idea of gender being a limit. I think people should love the person, not the gender.

Also, if God gave us a true path which is hidden, then it will be almost impossible to stay on it. Its like me telling you to come find me, but not telling you where I live and only giving you simple ways to get to my house (ie take the interstate). It will be almost impossible to follow any path when free will is added.

by **Rotaretilbo** on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:42 am

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Yes I understand that all sins will cause you to go to hell. But the real question is should homosexuality be considered a sin?

Well, let's see where this takes us.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Is a man loving a man any different than a man loving a woman? I have seen gay couples who have been with each other for their whole lives. I do not think its a perversion.

I don't like the idea of gender being a limit. I think people should love the person, not the gender.

What about a man loving a child? Why should age be a barrier? Or a man loving a dog? Why should species be a barrier? Or a man loving his toaster? Why should life be a barrier? You see, when we break down the fundamental barrier of one man and one woman, which is what nature intended, we must consider what happens to the other barriers.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Also, if God gave us a true path which is hidden, then it will be almost impossible to stay on it. Its like me telling you to come find me, but not telling you where I live and only giving you simple ways to get to my house (ie take the interstate). It will be almost impossible to follow any path when free will is added.

But that isn't how it is. The Bible is extremely clear on how to get to Him. Your argument actually supports the Bible as being the true Word of God, as you're right that it wouldn't make sense for God not to give us directions on how to get to Him if He expects us to.

by Felix on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:46 am

kslidz wrote:no the black plague happened because people threw there feces in the street and rats were abundant
and guess what

there are rules against doing stuff like that in the Bible as well

AIDs was not made because of gayness but nonetheless it was result you cant argue that

and yes straight people can get AIDs but thats not where it originated

All diseases have an origin from a certain cause. Just because it came from(which I'm personally still not sure about) Gays, it doesn't mean God made it "clean" gays.

Me, personally, I can't figure out well God would hate gays(to clarify, I'm not sure if it's written in text, but it's been said). If they don't hurt me, or the people around me, I don't see why they shouldn't go to Heaven if they do all "right" choices in life.

Also, the purgatory thing. In Catholic school, I was told that no one gets in to Heaven straight away unless you were a saint. You go to Purgatory(basically the middle area) where you wait for a certain number of prayers to get into Heaven. This concept always came up odd to me, but it's what I was told.

by kslidz on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:47 am

oh sorry i meant 8 and 9 sorry and you dont have to dissect everythig just the obvious parts

by Gauz on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:47 am

Should it be considered a sin? Well to me, it shouldn't, and you described why. To others, it should, why? Well they have their own (absurd) reasoning, and they are entitled to their own (absurd) opinoins.

Moreover, what is the proximate cause to this argument? Or... what are we debating? Are we debating the ethics of homosexuality? If we are trying to find out if God accepts Homosexuals definately, you wont really get anywhere.

My opinion is that God loves everyone, why? He says it (or people say he says it) over and over in the book (bible).

by **Rotaretilbo** on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:51 am

Felix wrote:Me, personally, I can't figure out well God would hate gays(to clarify, I'm not sure if it's written in text, but it's been said).

It's also been said that pigs can fly. What counts is what is written, not what people make up to try and support their personal cause. God does not hate gays, or anyone else. He hates the sin, not the sinner.

Felix wrote:If they don't hurt me, or the people around me, I don't see why they shouldn't go to Heaven if they do all "right" choices in life.

What about sexual immorality aside from homosexuality. Masturbation, lust, and all that whatnot. Are those sins?

Felix wrote:Also, the purgatory thing. In Catholic school, I was told that no one gets in to Heaven straight away unless you were a saint. You go to Purgatory(basically the middle area) where you wait for a certain number of prayers to get into Heaven. This concept always came up odd to me, but it's what I was told.

The Bible teaches that we will be cleansed by fire upon entering Heaven. It doesn't actually give any specifics beyond that.

kslidz wrote:oh sorry i meant 8 and 9 sorry and you dont have to dissect everythig just the obvious parts

Romans 8:8 doesn't add much. My previous explanation still stands. This scripture has nothing to do with predestination or free will.

Gauz wrote:Should it be considered a sin? Well to me, it shouldn't, and you described why. To others, it should, why? Well they have their own (absurd) reasoning, and they are entitled to their own (absurd) opinoins.

Moreover, what is the proximate cause to this argument? Or... what are we debating? Are we debating the ethics of homosexuality? If we are trying to find out if God accepts Homosexuals definately, you wont really get anywhere.

My opinion is that God loves everyone, why? He says it (or people say he says it) over and over in the book (bible).

Homosexuality is a type of sexual immorality. Like most sexual immoral sins, it doesn't directly harm anyone other than the sinner themselves. It is a type of defiling one's own body.

by Nocbl2 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:57 am

"God" is an entity invented by people. Really, Jesus never said anything about people being gay. "God" is not really a person. It is a spiritual entity that can assist people's minds along after they've left the "physical" world. I think there is something like an afterlife. I believe in God, but am still slightly agnostic. Indifferent, I guess, is God(as well as I).

People believe what they want, if they're homosexual and believe in God, I don't really care. BLEEP BLOOP

by Gauz on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:58 am

Question: Is post-martial sex considered a sexual immorality?

by Nocbl2 on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:59 am

by Felix on Tue Nov 17, 2009 2:59 am

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
My take on the subject, aside from the historical accuracy of the bible:
If an all-powerful God was to go to the trouble of giving us his word and telling us what to do, he'd probably go to the trouble of making sure that his Word remains uncorrupted.

Well, his Word has been corrupted before. They fall away from "His" way, and look to wordly possesions. To be fair though, they get fixed later, so it's possible God intervined, or maybe a slight glimer of hope for humanity for when they see the "right" choice.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Is this what you've been taught, or what you've decided from the sidelines?
(Note that I'm not asking "Do you just believe that because your parents believe it?" I'm asking something entirely different)

It was what I was directly taught. I even asked my teacher what she meant. She said(from what I remember anyway) that only saints get a direct path into heaven, and everyone else waits in purgatory for a certain amount of prayers to get in.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Anyhow, when I was young... I kept getting Purgatory and Constipation mixed up. It was embarrassing.

Well... that's a story you can get a laugh out of Razz

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Well, here's a microcosm: In Spore, it's great when the little creatures do what you want them to do without a lot of prodding.
If they were programmed to do EXACTLY what you want them to, down to the letter, then it would not only dissatisfying to you, but unfair to them. They'd be little more than calculators.

I think you miss understood me. What I meant was, God gave us free will did He not? If so, why can't we use this free will without worry of slightly going off the path to "righteousness"? I mean, there are certain amount of things that we as humans shouldn't do (such as taking others' lives) but if one loves another, what says we have a right to say they can't love? I really want to explain it better, but man I am tired...

EDIT: And my word, I can not quote...

EDIT: I just fucking fixed it, and you broke it again!
-Rot