Homosexuality in Religion

KrAzY wrote:so by not accepting God... I am evil.... despite being just as kind and self sacrificing as any christian I know?

I'm trying to figure out where I implied that you have to be a Christian to do good...and I'd like to also point out that even Christians can commit evil.

KrAzY wrote:also... someone who is denied access to any place in exsistance is not Omnipresent.... even if they themselves are the ones who denied access

Personally, I'd consider someone who exists almost everywhere, and is capable to exist anywhere, to be omnipresent, but if it makes you feel better, God is almost omnipresent, but respects free will.

KrAzY wrote:BTW

cold is not the absence of heat... Cold is the absence of energy... heat is the release of energy... there is no force of Hot... Light is different as it is a particle... "darkness" literally is the absence of emissive photons... so your metaphor still works there... unless you are talking about all matter... where darkness is the abundance of non-emissive photons

Of come on, KrAzY. Examples are supposed to make concepts easier to understand, so you shouldn't need a degree in quantum physics to understand them. If it makes you feel better, the point is the same. Cold is not the opposite of energy, but the absence of it. Jeez.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Would definitely prefer oblivion over Hell.

You think that now, but just imagine not existing. It's an experience that I simply can't wrap my mind around.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Two of your neighbors sneak up in the night, and steal two of your expensive lawn decorations.
One comes back the next day, admits he did it, and asks you to forgive him.

Exactly.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:KrAzY... you're REALLY splitting hairs here.

And more importantly, missing the point.

KrAzY wrote:splitting hairs?

I can tell you the equation for any one of those... entropy is a pretty easy formula actually.... can calculate the speed of light through an object....

can't do anything with dark matter tho... as my knowledge of DM only goes as far as the discovery channel




for one... I wouldn't leave anything I cared about sitting in my lawn.... and I would blame myself for not having installed a security camera

Yes, splitting hairs. As in you are using your keen attention of detail to avoid the actual point I'm making. You are dancing around the points by debating semantics. I've never seen you use such blatant or overused logic fallacies before.

KrAzY wrote:and the difference is.. I know I sin... as everybody does... but i'm not going to lie and say that someone is my savior just to avoid hell... as lieing to myself is worse than lieing to god IMO...

You still going on about how you know every single aspect of yourself, and thus know that you could never possibly believe in God? Honestly, KrAzY, to claim that you know everything about anything, including yourself, is a level of arrogance that I'd never expect from someone like you. You should know as well as anyone that we can never know everything about anything, and that we should thusly never claim to know everything about anything. By claiming that you could never possibly believe in God, you've just made yourself look dumb. Right now, I currently don't think I could ever believe in evolution, but I'm not going to sit here and say that I know that I could never possibly ever under any circumstances believe in evolution, or that if I were to ever believe in evolution, I'd be lying to myself, because that would be the real lie. What's really going on is you've convinced yourself that you can't believe in God as a shield so you don't have to think about such things. And when you come before God and try to claim that you were physically incapable of believing in God because of your personality, don't think it will get you very far. It's just a philosophical cop out, and we both know it.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:If God was truly omniscient he would be able to remove sin.

He's going to. However, he's going to give humans a nice long time to shape up, and when humanity has finally broken down beyond hope, he'll do away with sin.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:If he can't be around it why create it in the first place? Yes God created sin, by giving Adam and Eve free will he paved the way for them to sin.

Quite the opposite. Sin existed before Adam and Eve. As I've already explained, sin/evil is the absence of good. Thus, because sin is not an object so much as a but a lack of an object, it cannot have been created. You cannot "create" cold or darkness, you simply remove heat energy or light (respectively). That's why we can never reach absolute zero or absolute black, also.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:The fact that their sins carried on into everyone else is bullshit, but it happened.

The real bullshit is how you try and blame Adam and Eve for decisions you make, like their responsible for your sins. They may have been the first humans to sin, but no human is ever presented with a situation where he physically cannot make the right choice. You're just as capable of not sinning as Jesus was when he came to Earth, so don't try and blame others for your downfalls.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Here is a little commercial idea:

Do you sin? Of course you do, you were born into sin! There is no way to avoid it. You will always sin and nothing you do will ever make you a sin free person.

However, if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior this will give you the ability to wash away your sins at will! Just slept with your secretary? Ask forgiveness and start with a blank slate!

Have doubts it will work? No problems! There will always be doubt! As long as you believe that you can wash away your sins you can! Just accept Jesus Christ.

If you don't then you are not worthy to be with God and you will burn and be tortured for eternity in Hell. Join Christianity and be SAVED TODAY!


Do you see how the religion is made to try and scare people into believing? I mean come on, if you don't believe in God then you are not worthy of his presence. That does not sound like a reasonable and loving God to me.

Forgive us if we utilize powerful motivators out of concern for your eternal soul. Fear of consequence is one of the main reasons people don't break the law, after all. But oh, the government is bad because they use fear to keep us in line. We should get rid of the law, because it uses fear.[/sarcasm]

What really gets me is the sarcasm attached to how non Christians are unworthy to be in the presence of God, like we Christians are somehow worthy. None of us are worthy to be in the presence of God, and frankly, I don't see why he even puts up with us. But he does, and for that, I'm thankful.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:If he can't be around it why create it in the first place? Yes God created sin, by giving Adam and Eve free will he paved the way for them to sin.

Quite the opposite. Sin existed before Adam and Eve. As I've already explained, sin/evil is the absence of good. Thus, because sin is not an object so much as a but a lack of an object, it cannot have been created. You cannot "create" cold or darkness, you simply remove heat energy or light (respectively). That's why we can never reach absolute zero or absolute black, also.

Why doesn't God just put good everywhere? Then there would be no evil and the world would be a better place. Sound good to me.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:The fact that their sins carried on into everyone else is bullshit, but it happened.

The real bullshit is how you try and blame Adam and Eve for decisions you make, like their responsible for your sins. They may have been the first humans to sin, but no human is ever presented with a situation where he physically cannot make the right choice. You're just as capable of not sinning as Jesus was when he came to Earth, so don't try and blame others for your downfalls.

I never blamed Adam and Eve. I am simply saying is unfair that we are born into sin. Why are the mistakes of the past brought down on the present? I never blamed others for my downfalls. I honestly don't know of any downfalls in my life. I am quite content with where I am now. Try reading the sentence again before you make wild assumptions like that.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Here is a little commercial idea:

Do you sin? Of course you do, you were born into sin! There is no way to avoid it. You will always sin and nothing you do will ever make you a sin free person.

However, if you accept Jesus Christ as your lord and savior this will give you the ability to wash away your sins at will! Just slept with your secretary? Ask forgiveness and start with a blank slate!

Have doubts it will work? No problems! There will always be doubt! As long as you believe that you can wash away your sins you can! Just accept Jesus Christ.

If you don't then you are not worthy to be with God and you will burn and be tortured for eternity in Hell. Join Christianity and be SAVED TODAY!


Do you see how the religion is made to try and scare people into believing? I mean come on, if you don't believe in God then you are not worthy of his presence. That does not sound like a reasonable and loving God to me.

Forgive us if we utilize powerful motivators out of concern for your eternal soul. Fear of consequence is one of the main reasons people don't break the law, after all. But oh, the government is bad because they use fear to keep us in line. We should get rid of the law, because it uses fear.[/sarcasm]

What really gets me is the sarcasm attached to how non Christians are unworthy to be in the presence of God, like we Christians are somehow worthy. None of us are worthy to be in the presence of God, and frankly, I don't see why he even puts up with us. But he does, and for that, I'm thankful.

Well the legal system in the United States is actually a joke. They just sit around in a cell all day and play basketball. If they did a really really bad thing they get put on death row, where they wait in a cell all day until they are painlessly killed. That sounds a lot more different than being burned and tortured in Hell for all eternity.

I am simply saying that if God hates seeing his creation go to Hell then he should either A) Place good everywhere to remove sin and evil. B) Spare his creations the burning and torture of Hell and just let them go. He can't save them when they are in Hell.

Doctors do it in real life. If someone is suffering from a terminal and painful condition they give them an overdose of Morphine to spare them. God should spare us instead of watching his so called "loved ones" be tortured for all time.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

You still going on about how you know every single aspect of yourself, and thus know that you could never possibly believe in God? Honestly, KrAzY, to claim that you know everything about anything, including yourself, is a level of arrogance that I'd never expect from someone like you. You should know as well as anyone that we can never know everything about anything, and that we should thusly never claim to know everything about anything. By claiming that you could never possibly believe in God, you've just made yourself look dumb. Right now, I currently don't think I could ever believe in evolution, but I'm not going to sit here and say that I know that I could never possibly ever under any circumstances believe in evolution, or that if I were to ever believe in evolution, I'd be lying to myself, because that would be the real lie. What's really going on is you've convinced yourself that you can't believe in God as a shield so you don't have to think about such things. And when you come before God and try to claim that you were physically incapable of believing in God because of your personality, don't think it will get you very far. It's just a philosophical cop out, and we both know it.

of my own mind, I am omnipotent

I could believe in god... I could absolutely believe in him if he gave ME any evidance


however... short of something happening to TRUELY change my mind... then no... it is impossible with my current way of thinking... maybe if I had been raised differently, or if something saves me from certain doom one day.... but otherwise any belief would be a lie, and you are very fucking arrogant to claim to know me better than I know myself.

Rotaretilbo wrote:

He's going to. However, he's going to give humans a nice long time to shape up, and when humanity has finally broken down beyond hope, he'll do away with sin.

Its darkest before dawn, sorry, had to say that, because that's how it sounds. I really don't understand why he would make people he "loves" suffer that much for him.

rot wrote:
Quite the opposite. Sin existed before Adam and Eve. As I've already explained, sin/evil is the absence of good. Thus, because sin is not an object so much as a but a lack of an object, it cannot have been created. You cannot "create" cold or darkness, you simply remove heat energy or light (respectively). That's why we can never reach absolute zero or absolute black, also.

I could understand sin is the absence of god, however, if god is omnipotent he could overflow the universe with good.

rot wrote:
The real bullshit is how you try and blame Adam and Eve for decisions you make, like their responsible for your sins. They may have been the first humans to sin, but no human is ever presented with a situation where he physically cannot make the right choice. You're just as capable of not sinning as Jesus was when he came to Earth, so don't try and blame others for your downfalls.

They are responsible for sin...
In the story of Adam and Eve, Eve was tempted by the snake to eat the apple. She did, and then she also fed the apple to Adam. Then they realized, they were naked, and thusly covered themselves up from each other, and god. God asked what had they done, and Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the snake. God then punishes them with hard labor and the pain of child birth. It was then, sin has been interpeted as hereditary, passed on to men and women by Adam and Eve. This is why you must be baptised, they are the reason for original sin.

rot wrote:

What really gets me is the sarcasm attached to how non Christians are unworthy to be in the presence of God, like we Christians are somehow worthy. None of us are worthy to be in the presence of God, and frankly, I don't see why he even puts up with us. But he does, and for that, I'm thankful.

I think it should be the opposite, why do we put up with his shit? God could possibly be the most evil, hateful, murderous being ever concieved! Why? Well if you've ever heard about "God's Plan" you'd understand why. "God's Plan" is the idea that God mapped out your life entirely, the day you were born to the day you've died. Well... i'm sure you're thinking about situations in time when massive amounts of life ended unnecessarily. Perhaps, the Holocaust? Stalin's rule? 9/11? War?! According to "God's Plan", all of that was pre-determined, by God.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Why doesn't God just put good everywhere? Then there would be no evil and the world would be a better place. Sound good to me.

That would defeat the purpose of free will.

Rotaretilbo wrote:I never blamed Adam and Eve. I am simply saying is unfair that we are born into sin. Why are the mistakes of the past brought down on the present? I never blamed others for my downfalls. I honestly don't know of any downfalls in my life. I am quite content with where I am now. Try reading the sentence again before you make wild assumptions like that.

You say it is bullshit that you are born into sin, but you aren't held accountable for Adam and Eve's actions. You fuck up plenty all on your own. Or do you contend that you've never lied, and you've never taken anything without asking, and you've never lusted after someone, and you've never hated someone?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Well the legal system in the United States is actually a joke. They just sit around in a cell all day and play basketball. If they did a really really bad thing they get put on death row, where they wait in a cell all day until they are painlessly killed. That sounds a lot more different than being burned and tortured in Hell for all eternity.

So you agree that the legal system is ineffective?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:I am simply saying that if God hates seeing his creation go to Hell then he should either A) Place good everywhere to remove sin and evil. B) Spare his creations the burning and torture of Hell and just let them go. He can't save them when they are in Hell.

God is not going to remove free will, and God cannot just let people off just cuz he likes them. It doesn't work that way. God suffered an extremely painful death so that you could get off free, but that isn't enough for you? You want him to let you off without you having to even respect him at all?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Doctors do it in real life. If someone is suffering from a terminal and painful condition they give them an overdose of Morphine to spare them. God should spare us instead of watching his so called "loved ones" be tortured for all time.

Ya, because assissted suicide is a wonderful example of doing something good...

KrAzY wrote:of my own mind, I am omnipotent

Bull. Shit.

KrAzY wrote:I could believe in god... I could absolutely believe in him if he gave ME any evidance

I suppose the historical accuracy of the Bible and all of those various prophecies that have come true thus far don't count as evidence?

KrAzY wrote:however... short of something happening to TRUELY change my mind... then no... it is impossible with my current way of thinking... maybe if I had been raised differently, or if something saves me from certain doom one day.... but otherwise any belief would be a lie, and you are very fucking arrogant to claim to know me better than I know myself.

To claim that you know are omnipotent of your own mind, you must know everything about yourself. For me to counter that, I must simply point out one thing that you do not know about yourself. I'm not claiming to know more about you than you do, KrAzY. I'm just claiming that no person knows everything about anything, and you aren't an exception.

Gauz wrote:Its darkest before dawn, sorry, had to say that, because that's how it sounds. I really don't understand why he would make people he "loves" suffer that much for him.

God isn't the source of suffering. We are.

Gauz wrote:I could understand sin is the absence of god, however, if god is omnipotent he could overflow the universe with good.

And, in the process, eliminate free will.

Gauz wrote:They are responsible for sin...
In the story of Adam and Eve, Eve was tempted by the snake to eat the apple. She did, and then she also fed the apple to Adam. Then they realized, they were naked, and thusly covered themselves up from each other, and god. God asked what had they done, and Adam blamed Eve, Eve blamed the snake. God then punishes them with hard labor and the pain of child birth. It was then, sin has been interpeted as hereditary, passed on to men and women by Adam and Eve. This is why you must be baptised, they are the reason for original sin.

They caused us to gain knowledge of sin, but we choose to sin on our own. We don't need any help sinning. And you don't get baptized because of sin. You get baptized as a public announcement that you've been saved.

Gauz wrote:I think it should be the opposite, why do we put up with his shit? God could possibly be the most evil, hateful, murderous being ever concieved! Why? Well if you've ever heard about "God's Plan" you'd understand why. "God's Plan" is the idea that God mapped out your life entirely, the day you were born to the day you've died. Well... i'm sure you're thinking about situations in time when massive amounts of life ended unnecessarily. Perhaps, the Holocaust? Stalin's rule? 9/11? War?! According to "God's Plan", all of that was pre-determined, by God.

Because, again, God maps out our lives, but gives us the right to choose our own path. It's called free will. If you want to argue predestination, go bug kslidz about it.

rot wrote:Because, again, God maps out our lives, but gives us the right to choose our own path. It's called free will. If you want to argue predestination, go bug kslidz about it.

No... thats not how the bible interperts God's Plan. When I say mapped out, I literally meant it. The idea of God's Plan does eliminate free will, because God has already predetermined what you will do. Not only did he determine it, but he forces it on you, it will be done. He doesn't map out what he wants your life to be, like you were suggesting, he maps it and forces it on you.

Free will is an illusion with the idea of "God's Plan". However, that's not the point. The point is (that goes back on topic) God has planned and forced your body to be Homosexual, he forced Hitler and Stalin to execute millions of people, he's forcing me to argue this point and you to defend free will. He forces people to sin, and forces people to go to hell also.

I don't believe in it, but that's what "God's Plan" is. Another hypocritical passage in the bible.

Gauz wrote:

rot wrote:Because, again, God maps out our lives, but gives us the right to choose our own path. It's called free will. If you want to argue predestination, go bug kslidz about it.

No... thats not how the bible interperts God's Plan. When I say mapped out, I literally meant it. The idea of God's Plan does eliminate free will, because God has already predetermined what you will do. Not only did he determine it, but he forces it on you, it will be done. He doesn't map out what he wants your life to be, like you were suggesting, he maps it and forces it on you.

Free will is an illusion with the idea of "God's Plan". However, that's not the point. The point is (that goes back on topic) God has planned and forced your body to be Homosexual, he forced Hitler and Stalin to execute millions of people, he's forcing me to argue this point and you to defend free will. He forces people to sin, and forces people to go to hell also.

I don't believe in it, but that's what "God's Plan" is. Another hypocritical passage in the bible.

Which is a point I tried to make before but rots interpretation of the Bible threw it out the window and I knew he would never accept it.

So you agree that the legal system is ineffective?

Rot, I am simply saying the legal system here is less harmful and fucked up than Hell. Honestly do you think we should put all our prisoners in a burning room and attack them with whips everyday? You do know that most people are in prison for some bullshit crimes like downloading movies. That doesn't sound very kind.

That would defeat the purpose of free will.

How is placing good everywhere removing free will? We would only get to make good choices, not evil ones, which is what God wants anyway. Why would God care? Why do we have to be worthy to be in his presence? Half of my family is like that and they are fucking snobs. If you don't make enough money they want nothing to do with you. If God is the same way I don't want to believe in him.

Ya, because assisted suicide is a wonderful example of doing something good...

Would you rather let a person die a horrible painful death than to be killed peacefully and painlessly? Your a horrible person.


I honestly think this has gotten way of course. We are turning to putting words in each others mouths and not really debating anymore. My last point is this. I think God is a horrible being if he just goes around and damning people to Hell for not believing in him. I think he is a horrible being if he is so closed minded that he can't accept the fact that homosexuals exist and are good people. Why are they damned to Hell just for their sexual preference?

Why do people think homosexuality is a perversion. It is not. People who perform bestiality are perverted because they are having sex with an animal, no were near the same species as humans. People who are pedophiles are perverted because they are abusing and harming an innocent mind. Children have no idea about sex. A Man who sleeps with another man... well, they are both human and they both know what they are doing so I don't think it is a perversion. You guys just want it to be.

I am more open minded than God because I can accept the fact that people are different and I don't hold them against it. I don't deny people access to my house or to any of my resources because they are Gay or different. Why does God? Don't say it's because he can't be around sin because we already established that he could remove sin if he wanted to.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I like this quote, and it is on topic. Seeing as how he is one of these.... or most.

Gauz wrote:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

I like this quote, and it is on topic. Seeing as how he is one of these.... or most.

Something I've been wanting to say for a while: "God" has no gender.

But more to the point. "God" cannot stop "evil" or "good" from happening. "Free will", in the sense of the whole mind, conscious and subconscious, kinda butts heads with the "God stopping good or evil" or sentencing people to Heaven or hell. Our minds can do whatever they want. Okay, go kill yourselves now. *leaves thread*

Quickly:

Hell is not a place of torture, it is simply a place without God. For humans, living without God is, well, painful.

Jesus and God are good: If you embrace kindness, and repent* your sins, then you are accepted. These do not need be specifically aimed at God, but since God is all that is good, you are spiritually embracing God.

BUT, in order to be with God, you must be without sin, thereby, giving your sin to Jesus, by repenting*.

*Repent means to wish to undo, regret, normally to something bad that you did. Not just to ask forgiveness of God, but to ask forgiveness of yourself (and quite possibly be declined).

Many people live without God, and they are fine, they are very fine in fact.
Does killing billions of people count as "nice" to you?

And noc, God can do whatever the fuck he wants says the bible and religion. He is omnipotent, present, and omniscient. He created the universe and life itself, he is quite capable of eleminating evil and creating good, just chooses not to, making him *drum roll* malevolent.

Gauz wrote:No... thats not how the bible interperts God's Plan. When I say mapped out, I literally meant it. The idea of God's Plan does eliminate free will, because God has already predetermined what you will do. Not only did he determine it, but he forces it on you, it will be done. He doesn't map out what he wants your life to be, like you were suggesting, he maps it and forces it on you.

Free will is an illusion with the idea of "God's Plan". However, that's not the point. The point is (that goes back on topic) God has planned and forced your body to be Homosexual, he forced Hitler and Stalin to execute millions of people, he's forcing me to argue this point and you to defend free will. He forces people to sin, and forces people to go to hell also.

I don't believe in it, but that's what "God's Plan" is. Another hypocritical passage in the bible.

You'd better have scriptural references before you claim that the Bible specifically states that there is no free will.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Which is a point I tried to make before but rots interpretation of the Bible threw it out the window and I knew he would never accept it.

If you guys are going to adamantly claim that we have no free will and God controls all of us, then you'd better get the scripture to back it up. And when you manage to contort some scripture badly out of context enough to somehow support your claim, I'll be ready with the context of that scripture and a handful of other scripture which refute your point.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Rot, I am simply saying the legal system here is less harmful and fucked up than Hell. Honestly do you think we should put all our prisoners in a burning room and attack them with whips everyday? You do know that most people are in prison for some bullshit crimes like downloading movies. That doesn't sound very kind.

The legal system here is also fundamentally broken, in that innocent men get put in prison from time to time, and guilty men go free all the time.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:How is placing good everywhere removing free will? We would only get to make good choices, not evil ones, which is what God wants anyway.

If we could only make good choices, then we wouldn't even really be making the choices. By giving us free will, God has given us the right to do whatever we want within the physical limitations of universe. If God limited half our options, then it wouldn't be free will anymore.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Why would God care?

I believe Rasq made a reference to this using Spore. Refer to that.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Why do we have to be worthy to be in his presence?

Did you miss that part where I said no one is worthy to be in God's presence?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Half of my family is like that and they are fucking snobs. If you don't make enough money they want nothing to do with you. If God is the same way I don't want to believe in him.

Then half of your family is dumb as shit, because the Bible preaches to take care of the poor and oppressed, and Jesus said that the rich actually have a harder time getting into Heaven (little known fact: the Eye of a Needle is actually a small gate leading into Jerusalem; to get a camel through it, you had to make it crawl, which the stubborn beast didn't want to do).

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Would you rather let a person die a horrible painful death than to be killed peacefully and painlessly? Your a horrible person.

I know a guy who's friend was dying a slow and painful death, and asked him to end it for him. He couldn't do it. Does that make him a horrible person, that he couldn't kill his friend? I think not.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:I honestly think this has gotten way of course. We are turning to putting words in each others mouths and not really debating anymore.

I don't recall putting words in anyone's mouth. I've been too busy spitting out the shit people keep putting in mine.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:My last point is this. I think God is a horrible being if he just goes around and damning people to Hell for not believing in him.

It's quite apparent that you've either not read or ignored anything and everything Rasq and I have said so far.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:I think he is a horrible being if he is so closed minded that he can't accept the fact that homosexuals exist and are good people.

See above response.

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Why are they damned to Hell just for their sexual preference?

You know, you never answered my question from before. Is pedophilia perverse? Is necrophilia perverse? Is bestiality perverse? Is objectophilia perverse? Why should gender be the only boundary broken?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:Why do people think homosexuality is a perversion. It is not. People who perform bestiality are perverted because they are having sex with an animal, no were near the same species as humans.

And why is having sex with an animal perverse? Why should species be a boundary?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:People who are pedophiles are perverted because they are abusing and harming an innocent mind. Children have no idea about sex.

Did you know that love != sex? What about men who love children in the way that couples love each other? Is that perverse? What if the child does know about sex? Is that perverse? Is it perverse is a forty year old has sex with a fifteen year old, who knows full and well what sex is? Why should age be a boundary?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:A Man who sleeps with another man... well, they are both human and they both know what they are doing so I don't think it is a perversion. You guys just want it to be.

It's hilarious. When defending homosexuality from other sex-related mental disorders, you use the same cop out arguments Christians use against homosexuality. The difference is that you say we should take down one boundary, but that the rest are perverse, like homosexuality is somehow a step above the other things I listed. What about pedophilia? Not all of pedophilia involves an innocent who is being molested or raped. Their both human, they both know what they are doing, so that should be cool, right?

LeafyOwNu2 wrote:I am more open minded than God because I can accept the fact that people are different and I don't hold them against it. I don't deny people access to my house or to any of my resources because they are Gay or different. Why does God? Don't say it's because he can't be around sin because we already established that he could remove sin if he wanted to.

Established? We've established that God can remove sin by removing free will, which He will not do. Other than that, all you've established is how hilarious it is to use your own pro-homosexuality arguments against you with other sexual perversions.

Gauz wrote:I like this quote, and it is on topic. Seeing as how he is one of these.... or most.

It shows just how little of what I've been saying is actually getting read. That's for sure.

Nocbl2 wrote:Something I've been wanting to say for a while: "God" has no gender.

But more to the point. "God" cannot stop "evil" or "good" from happening. "Free will", in the sense of the whole mind, conscious and subconscious, kinda butts heads with the "God stopping good or evil" or sentencing people to Heaven or hell. Our minds can do whatever they want. Okay, go kill yourselves now. *leaves thread*

I just want to know, Gauz, how does it feel to be outsmarted by Nocbl? I don't even think he's religious at all, but he seems to actually understand what free will is.

TNine wrote:Quickly:

Hell is not a place of torture, it is simply a place without God. For humans, living without God is, well, painful.

A fair point that I completely forgot about, but true. I'd like to add to this by pointing out that Satan does not rule Hell, and the demons aren't like prison guards. They're your cell mates, effectively.

TNine wrote:Jesus and God are good: If you embrace kindness, and repent* your sins, then you are accepted. These do not need be specifically aimed at God, but since God is all that is good, you are spiritually embracing God.

BUT, in order to be with God, you must be without sin, thereby, giving your sin to Jesus, by repenting*.

*Repent means to wish to undo, regret, normally to something bad that you did. Not just to ask forgiveness of God, but to ask forgiveness of yourself (and quite possibly be declined).

I don't know how easy it is to give your sins to Jesus if you aren't aiming them at him, but that's the idea, yes.

Gauz wrote:Many people live without God, and they are fine, they are very fine in fact.
Does killing billions of people count as "nice" to you?

And noc, God can do whatever the fuck he wants says the bible and religion. He is omnipotent, present, and omniscient. He created the universe and life itself, he is quite capable of eleminating evil and creating good, just chooses not to, making him *drum roll* malevolent.

From here on, I'm ignoring Gauz. His understanding of the Bible is so pathetic that he isn't worth my time anymore. He had it all spelled out for him, and he still doesn't get it?

You won't argue with me... why?

You have no reason not to, i'll back up what I say. What part did you think was so unexplaing and not worth your time? The part that god commands you to kill more than half the people in America? Was it the part that he claims to control our lives?

Please tell me rather than sayin "STFU you don't know what you're talking about (notice the lack of actual arguement here, oh wait, 'it was already said previously')"

God commands you to kill millions of people:
A passage in the bible that you should be familiar with is the one that commands you to kill all people on the sabbath. That alone wipes out the lives of many people. I don't know how'd you argue that one, as in the bible it says just that, "kill those who work on the sabbath".

"God's Plan" is a common belief shared by many christians that god plans your birth and death and everything in between. God's plan is generally how most christians explain most negative happenings in life, natural disasters, car accidents, murders and war. Here is a passage from the book A Purpose Driven Life:

Because God made you for a reason, he also decided when you would be born and how long you would live. He planned the days of your life in advance, choosing the exact time of your birth and death. The Bible says, "You saw me before I was born and scheduled each day of my life before I began to breathe. Every day was recorded in your book!" [Psalm 139]

God supposedly planned you exact birth date and death and everything in between. For everyone, everyone in the world, no exceptions. Therefore he would be the cause of the Holocaust, Stalin's killings, 9/11, ALL war, among other horrible events...

Rot, I simply and utterly give up. You have taken my post and when multi-quote crazy on it. You broke it down to every single sentence. Don't you know that you have to read the entire thing as a whole to get the full meaning. Apparently you didn't because you didn't catch the whole part where I tried to tell you why homosexuality is not a perversion. You just simply cut it up too much to get the full meaning. I will say it one last time since you didn't quite understand.

Bestiality is a perversion because you are loving another species. This love is more than likely going to be in the form of sex.

Pedophilia is a perversion because you are loving a child who is incapable to returning the same love because they do not understand it. Not to mention the fact that you are abusing the innocence of a young mind.

Necrophilia is a perversion because you are looking for sex in a lifeless corpse. They can not tell you no and they have no will to stop you. It is essentially rape.

Being homosexual is not a perversion. You and another of the same sex are simply agreeing to love one another. Any type of love. There is no misconceptions, no manipulations, nothing of the sort. It is simply love.

If it was truly a perversion would there no be a word called homophilia? I mean a word that is official, not some urban dictionary bull.

I am honestly done since you are just going to pick apart every single sentence instead of taking things on head first. You've gone multi-quote crazy.

Homosexuals killed my mother and raped my father to death.
I will never forgive.
I will never forget.