Re: Why are you religious/not religious?

by JB on Fri Jan 22, 2010 5:48 am

Dud Doodoo wrote:
Carcarius wrote:I stopped being religious when I saw all the plot holes in the bible

This, my friends, is a fine example of a true intellectual. One of any intelligence would not bother to stick around and partake in the silly practice known as "debate" Instead they would know that the best way to win any argument is to state your opinion in a straightforward, one sentence statement and leave, without providing any elaboration or evidence to back your claim. The sheer lack of specifics in your post may very well baffle your foes, leaving the fools at an utter loss of words, so that you may call it a win for the day.

I quite like this fellow, for he is truly demonstrating the capabilities of a strong, young masculine mind.

Moving on. Now that the thread has been revived, is there anyone willing to continue/restart the argument?

I'll sum up the rest of it for ya ;)

Guy1: God exists!
Guy2: God doesn't exist!
(random facts and historical recordings blah blah blah)
Guy1: Back to square one?
Guy2: Indeed....

....................
Guy1: God exists!
and the cycle repeats.

by czar on Fri Jan 22, 2010 1:11 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Carcarius wrote:I stopped being religious when I saw all the plot holes in the bible

Feel free to elaborate.

<elaborate>Elaboration</elaborate>

I'm pretty that sums it up.

by Gauz on Fri Jan 22, 2010 6:54 pm

Those are inconsitencies with the bible, personally, if I were to follow christianity in any way shape or form, I would not follow the bible strictly...

Anyways... i'm not religious because i'm slightly skeptical of it, I do acknowledge 'gods' existence partially, however, not so much of how the bible describes him.

by **Rotaretilbo** on Fri Jan 22, 2010 11:58 pm

When I get some spare time, I'll take each one and point out the fallacy used. For now, I've only read the first few, and those few I've read seem pretty weak.

by **Rasq'uire'laskar** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 12:57 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:When I get some spare time, I'll take each one and point out the fallacy used. For now, I've only read the first few, and those few I've read seem pretty weak.

Most of them are. There's quite a few in there, however, which stem from the people not understanding the culture back then.

But before I get on this with my free time, I'd like to clear two of them up.
One, the Nephilim.
Nobody knows what the Hell those things were, really. The Bible alludes to them as being "Kings among Men" and "Giants," but they're only mentioned in two or three verses. There's several interpretations of what they were, but the two I've heard (And my pastor supports that last one) is
A: Nephilim was a title.
B: Nephilim (Sounds weird, but bear with me) were somewhere between men and angels. Specifically, some sort of hybrid.
Lucifer himself is an example of angels striking out on their own, so...

Second, the Multiple Genealogies of Jesus.
This one tripped up Carl Sagan. It was his crowning moment of "Did Not Do the Research" in "Contact" (incidentally, I lost that book before I was done with it... Still want to finish it.)
Two men are cited as the "Father" of Joseph, the non-biological father of Jesus. However, this was common in genealogies back then! Patriarchal society, remember? Mary was somewhat of a non-issue under law when she married Joseph, so it would have been common for her father to be called "Father of Joseph", rather than "Father-In-Law of Joseph."

And another thing... This guy is using the KJV.
Not. Nearly. As. Accurate. As. NIV.

by **Rotaretilbo** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:16 am

Donald Morgan wrote:IMPORTANT: Please keep in mind that by "inconsistencies" I do not necessarily mean "contradictions." Even though accepted and common definitions of the two terms often make them synonymous, I make a subtle distinction which is reflected in at least some of the accepted definitions. What I have in mind is that an inconsistency involves a lack of harmonious uniformity, regularity, steady continuity, or agreement among the verses cited. Thus, whereas a contradiction is necessarily an inconsistency, an inconsistency is not necessarily a contradiction. But certainly some of the listed biblical inconsistencies could be taken as biblical contradictions.

The guy who made it himself goes out of his way to make sure that people don't try to pass these off as contradictions, but rather inconsistencies. Things that might possibly be a contradiction if interpreted a specific way. They aren't plot holes until you're looking for plot holes.

by Carcarius on Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:26 am

Dud Doodoo wrote:
Carcarius wrote:I stopped being religious when I saw all the plot holes in the bible

This, my friends, is a fine example of a true intellectual. One of any intelligence would not bother to stick around and partake in the silly practice known as "debate" Instead they would know that the best way to win any argument is to state your opinion in a straightforward, one sentence statement and leave, without providing any elaboration or evidence to back your claim. The sheer lack of specifics in your post may very well baffle your foes, leaving the fools at an utter loss of words, so that you may call it a win for the day.

I quite like this fellow, for he is truly demonstrating the capabilities of a strong, young masculine mind.

Moving on. Now that the thread has been revived, is there anyone willing to continue/restart the argument?

Sorry, let me explain. After finding out that Santa Clause didn't exist i used that same logic for this God character. Is it possible for one being, one all mighty creature to listen and monitor 6 billion + people at once? Also if we were created in the image of god, why do we have so many imperfections. Plus the whole debacle of evolution, dinosaurs, Jesus, Noahs Ark, existence of Evil, just make god another fictional superbeing that people associate with to give purpose to their meaningless life.

by TNine on Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:32 am

Progressive Relevation: As humanity progressed out of the pre-historic times, we got closer to civilization we understand God better. Guidelines of the past may no longer hold true, as now we are "mature" enough for a new set of rules.

When i was six, my mom told me to go to bed at eight. Does that mean i should go to bed at eight now? No, because i grew out of the old set of rules.

by Dud Doodoo on Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:03 am

Is this all Toaster gave you? I feel let down, I really do. It would appear as if you have given this as much thought as the average Joe.

Carcarius wrote:
Sorry, let me explain. After finding out that Santa Clause didn't exist i used that same logic for this God character. Is it possible for one being, one all mighty creature to listen and monitor 6 billion + people at once? Also if we were created in the image of god, why do we have so many imperfections.

When taking into account that we believe such a being has created the universe and exists outside of time, monitoring a mere 6 billion people would be a small feat. If you had read the Bible before dismissing Christianity you would know that imperfection, evil, sin, ect exists because God chose to give us free will. If we were predictable, pre-programmed machines what reason would there be for our existence?

Carcarius wrote:
Plus the whole debacle of evolution, dinosaurs, Jesus, Noahs Ark, existence of Evil, just make god another fictional superbeing that people associate with to give purpose to their meaningless life.

I personally believe that the creation story could have been made to communicate the basic ideas that God wanted to get across while making sense to the people of the time. I am open to the theory of evolution as it doesn't contradict the Bible, although unlike most idiots in the world I don't automatically accept it as fact or a proven process that is responsible for our creation. To be honest I don't have a lot of confidence in it due to my experience with genetic algorithms.

And would you care to specify about Jesus? Saying that Christ is evidence against Christianity can hardly be considered self explanatory... Besides that, I have stated previously that I'm open to the possibility of pre abraham stories in the bible being metaphorical, such as Noah's Ark, but I don't feel either way about it. There has actually been evidence brought up to support it, but I'll leave it to someone else to defend it. Since I have already discussed the existence of evil, I won't comment on it.

While this time you seem to have brought more than a one sentence statement about your views to the table, you have still failed to back up your claims with sufficient evidence/information. I can only hope that next time you bring something a little more solid. I look forward to it.

by Carcarius on Sat Jan 23, 2010 4:55 pm

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"-Epicurus.

The whole miracle birth and Jesus didn't do anything until he was 30 problem. Then, that there has not been any contact from god to us humans since the inscription of the bible. Also what does a mortal soul do in Heaven or Hell, does one just enjoy or burn for infinity and forever? Why did god create the universe when in a googol years it will be nothing but darkness? How can the extinction of animals exist when God created them? I find this all very perplexing.

by **Rasq'uire'laskar** on Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:26 pm

Carcarius wrote:"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"-Epicurus.

This has been brought up, what, six times?
Each time, we shot it down with 'Free Will'.

Carcarius wrote:The whole miracle birth and Jesus didn't do anything until he was 30 problem.

Massive case of "Did not do the research" there, bud. Jesus was doing a LOT before he was thirty.

Carcarius wrote:Than, that there has not been any contact from god to us humans since the inscription of the bible.

God made it clear several times (in the Bible) that the Bible was his word, and that's what he's speaking to us through.
Apparently, all he had to say is wrapped up between Genesis and Relevations.

Carcarius wrote:Also what does a mortal soul do in Heaven or Hell, does one just enjoy or burn for infinity and forever?

I doubt Heaven is exactly the end of things. I'd be willing to bet that, after the end of the universe, it's on to bigger projects.

Carcarius wrote:Why did god create the universe when in a googol years it will be nothing but darkness?

Well, seeing as how God apparently doesn't intend to let the universe keep going until entropy takes over...

Carcarius wrote: How can the extinction of animals exist when God created them? I find this all very perplexing.

Ironically, that argument was originally used against the fossil record.
However, the whole nature of the Universe seems to point out that God was willing to let things mature after he created them.

by TNine on Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:35 pm

Carcarius wrote:"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"-Epicurus.

The whole miracle birth and Jesus didn't do anything until he was 30 problem. Then, that there has not been any contact from god to us humans since the inscription of the bible. Also what does a mortal soul do in Heaven or Hell, does one just enjoy or burn for infinity and forever? Why did god create the universe when in a googol years it will be nothing but darkness? How can the extinction of animals exist when God created them? I find this all very perplexing.

Without evil, there can be no good. Good is only measured in terms of realativity, as everything in our lives is (which also solves the "why aren't we all happy" problem).

Hell is a place with the abscense of God, which is unbelievably uncomforable process. We weren't meant to exist without God. Heaven is just filled with more God, which is unbelievably comforting and happy.

The rest is just questioning God's motives, which is always a stupid thing to do, we don't know what the fuck God is doing and nor do we know what he is going to do.

God contacts us every day, just a tad more subtely than you would think. When i go to church and listen, i see that God is speaking directly at me through the Bible and the pastor. Not to mention in dreams, to-good-to-be-true coincidences, sudden relevations, etc. Look for God and you will find him, decline God and he can't find you.

Lastly, why is it a problem that Jesus didn't do anything until he was 30?

by Dud Doodoo on Sat Jan 23, 2010 6:43 pm

Carcarius wrote:"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"-Epicurus.

Evil exists because God will not interfere with free will, which one can understand without difficulty. If God did not allow us to be evil, then how would we have free will? If there was only good in the world, with no counterpart, then wouldn't good lose it's meaning? God intended us to be perfect, he made us in his image. Because of this we have Godlike traits, such as creativity, intelligence, emotion, and the freedom to make our own choices. He wants us to be good, he wants us to be without sin or imperfection, he wants us to be obedient to him and live the lives he knows are best for us. However, it is because he empowered us with the ability to make our own choices that we decide not to be those people.

Carcarius wrote:
The whole miracle birth and Jesus didn't do anything until he was 30 problem. Than, that there has not been any contact from god to us humans since the inscription of the bible. Also what does a mortal soul do in Heaven or Hell, does one just enjoy or burn for infinity and forever? Why did god create the universe when in a googol years it will be nothing but darkness? How can the extinction of animals exist when God created them? I find this all very perplexing.

I don't.

Carcarius wrote:
The whole miracle birth and Jesus didn't do anything until he was 30 problem.

Are you suggesting that because virgin births don't happen in nature it's a problem that the Bible says the creator of the universe made one happen? It makes sense to me that God would choose to be born from a virgin if he was going to come to earth a human and live a human life. I don't see your point about him preaching when he was older, and there were stories of him doing things as a child.

Carcarius wrote:
Than, that there has not been any contact from god to us humans since the inscription of the bible.

He has already said everything he wanted to say and done everything he has wanted to do until the time when he comes back and the world ends. Until then it is up to us to live by the Bible and represent him here on Earth. I do, however, believe that he interacts with us and guides us, I believe that he answers prayers. While there might not have been many major events or documented accounts, I do believe there has been contact with God since then.

Carcarius wrote:
Also what does a mortal soul do in Heaven or Hell, does one just enjoy or burn for infinity and forever?

I'm not sure I get what you're trying to say...

Carcarius wrote:
Why did god create the universe when in a googol years it will be nothing but darkness?

Well as stated in the Bible, he made the universe to have a beginning and an end. Why would he? I can't tell you. Why wouldn't he? I can't think of a reason why not. I don't think it means anything either way.

Carcarius wrote:
How can the extinction of animals exist when God created them?

God has put us in charge of all other creation and has given it to us unfinished so that we may complete it. It is entirely within our power to drive animals he has created into extinction. Is this responsible or right of us? No, but that is beside the point.

by Gauz on Sat Jan 23, 2010 7:59 pm

I stopped being religious when someone told me an invisible man created the universe in 7 days

Excuse me... sorry about that, I just had an impulsive moment.

But anyways, I stopped trying to be religious when it became boring and when people tried to force their beliefs on me. Not that I don't believe in God or anything, but I just don't care... if he's real or not...

I may just be one of those "See it then i'll believe it" kind of people, but that's because I don't believe water turning into blood/wine, or men walking on water, unless they're Criss Angel that is.

Well i'm off, don't want to be wasting my time debating religion you know?

by czar on Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:34 pm

There are many other confident religions besides Christianity, some of which are older. What makes you think that your religion is correct?