Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

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Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:23 pm

Healthy or Unhealty?
This pertains to the diet, as you can imagine(I know someone would bring something else up eventually).
Also, true Vegan's, not the fake kind.

I would have to say its unhealthy due to a deficiency in several key nutrients.

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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by KrAzY on Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:25 pm

its unhealthy


Humans are Omnivores, we NEED the stuff thats in meat to survive.... they get aroud that with suppliments and pills... but when you have to take a drug to survive because your diet would kill you... how does this seem healthy at all?
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Gold Spartan on Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:27 pm

If you have to addict yourself to supplements so you can eat the way you want, how can that possibly be healthy?
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by laxspartan007 on Mon Jan 25, 2010 7:38 pm

i eat whatever i want/can get my hands on and im not dieing, and im unhelthy... 2 Thumbs Down...
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Death no More on Tue Jan 26, 2010 6:36 am

Unhealthy

Meat and fish have key proteins that plants lack.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Ringleader on Tue Jan 26, 2010 8:23 am

Yeah, some vegetables/beans such as soy have similar hormones added to them as beef
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:16 am

The vegan diet should be /illegal/ to feed to children under the age of 10. You're essentially stunting your kid's growth by not feeding him meat and milk.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by JB on Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:49 am

The thing I think is dumbest about vegans/vegetarians...

Vegetarian protestor- "Don't eat animals!"

Me- "Why?"

Vegetarian- "Because it's wrong to kill animals!"

Me- "So let me get this right... you don't want me to eat this cheese burger because it will bring back the cow?"

Vegetarian- "... well no but.."

Me- Ahh now I get it, you're a cult that brings animals back from the dead! Here have my hamburger and bring back this cow!"

I was out in the city while this group of crackpots was protesting outside a McDonalds. So my buddy and I went in and bought our food and they threw shit at us on the way out. So I got in an argument with one and so on, needless to say about a half hour later they got arrested for "violent protesting" I lol'd.

My sister is a vegan and she has terrible health, she gets sick all the time, if she doesn't take her suppliment every day then she has to go to the hospital otherwise she can die. It's a death wish to follow that diet for an extended period of time.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 11:24 am

A wise man once said, for every cow that a vegetarian saves, I pledge to eat three.

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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Death no More on Tue Jan 26, 2010 12:48 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:A wise man once said, for every cow that a vegetarian saves, I pledge to eat three.
New favorite quote XD
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Toaster on Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:10 pm

eh, as long as they're taking proper supplements to make up for the nutrients that they're missing out on... it seems perfectly healthy to me.

I don't really understand to whole "anti-medication" mentality. You may say it's unnatural but.... well so is all medication. Being unnatural doesn't make it "bad."

Medication is there to help. If it can help you maintain your ideal life-style, by all means take it.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by TNine on Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:39 pm


Saw this comic right after looking at the thread.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by KrAzY on Tue Jan 26, 2010 2:57 pm

ReconToaster wrote:eh, as long as they're taking proper supplements to make up for the nutrients that they're missing out on... it seems perfectly healthy to me.

I don't really understand to whole "anti-medication" mentality. You may say it's unnatural but.... well so is all medication. Being unnatural doesn't make it "bad."

Medication is there to help. If it can help you maintain your ideal life-style, by all means take it.


itrs not the medication that maks it bad... its the fact that without the medication a vegan would die...


which means that the diet itself is unhealthy
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Gauz on Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:09 pm

I suppose if you take supplement for all the nutrients you're lacking, it is healthy. Veganism does have it's problems, that however is only if you poorly designed your diet. The main concern of vegan diets being unhealthy is lack of nutrition. You can get all the nutrients you need that a vegan diet would lack, as supplement.

The main one that I heard people say you get a lack of was vitamin B12, and that's because the bacteria that produces it resides in animals more often than not. Cyanocobalamin (which is an artificial form of Vitamin B12) is just as good, and doesn't come from animals meaning a vegan can take it.

While I don't particularly agree with the vegan diet, seeing as how I can't give up delicious animals Very Happy, I won't say it isn't healthy. So as long as you get the necessary nutriets to counter and nutrient deficiencies, i'd say you're fine. I'm not a dietary expert, but I can use the internet and I do have an audiobook (which I can't really use since it's an audiobook :\) that tell me you can get all those nutrients apparently. I'm not aware of any other health dysfunctions... feel free to share them I guess.


Note: I am strictly talking about the HEALTH of veganism, not the ETHICS of it, which you's already mentioned. Don't bring that crap up, read the thread title.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Gauz on Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:11 pm

KrAzY wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:eh, as long as they're taking proper supplements to make up for the nutrients that they're missing out on... it seems perfectly healthy to me.

I don't really understand to whole "anti-medication" mentality. You may say it's unnatural but.... well so is all medication. Being unnatural doesn't make it "bad."

Medication is there to help. If it can help you maintain your ideal life-style, by all means take it.


itrs not the medication that maks it bad... its the fact that without the medication a vegan would die...


which means that the diet itself is unhealthy
Yeah, but if you take the proper supplements that are apart of the vegans diet, they're okay.

So while the actual diet isn't healthy, you can counter that with supplements. If we're talking about the diet w/o the supplements then yes, it's not healthy at all.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 4:59 pm

ReconToaster wrote:eh, as long as they're taking proper supplements to make up for the nutrients that they're missing out on... it seems perfectly healthy to me.

I don't really understand to whole "anti-medication" mentality. You may say it's unnatural but.... well so is all medication. Being unnatural doesn't make it "bad."

Medication is there to help. If it can help you maintain your ideal life-style, by all means take it.

Couldn't I then argue that influenza is healthy, because with the proper supplements and medications, I will appear healthy? The point is, if you have to take a medication just to survive, you are not "healthy." Not partaking in meat, fish, milk, cheese, eggs, etc is unhealthy, despite the fact that people push the concept that vegetarians and vegans are inherently more healthy than us normal people.

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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Gold Spartan on Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:10 pm

Vegetarians might, since they can still eat eggs and dairy.The Vegan is unhealthy. Vegans and Vegetarians aren't the same.
Seriously, how is the Vegan diet any better than smoking? You have to take supplements(drugs) EVERYDAY to survive. Hell, it's worse than smoking. At least smoking won't kill you if you stop using tobacco.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Gauz on Tue Jan 26, 2010 5:25 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:eh, as long as they're taking proper supplements to make up for the nutrients that they're missing out on... it seems perfectly healthy to me.

I don't really understand to whole "anti-medication" mentality. You may say it's unnatural but.... well so is all medication. Being unnatural doesn't make it "bad."

Medication is there to help. If it can help you maintain your ideal life-style, by all means take it.

Couldn't I then argue that influenza is healthy, because with the proper supplements and medications, I will appear healthy? The point is, if you have to take a medication just to survive, you are not "healthy." Not partaking in meat, fish, milk, cheese, eggs, etc is unhealthy, despite the fact that people push the concept that vegetarians and vegans are inherently more healthy than us normal people.
In the end, if you take the nutrient supplements, you're still healthy...

Influenza is unhealthy, because well.. we know why.

Vegan diet isn't, because the supplements and medication are apart of your diet. What difference does it make if you take your nutrients through a pill rather than through meat? While the food you actually eat in a vegan diet isn't exactly healthy, you get the supplement. I don't see the difference, wether you take the nutrients in your food, or in a pill doesn't really matter. Eating non-vegan foods just has the perk of having them already in there. I'm not going to argue that it's more healthy, though i'm sure you can, but i'm just going to say the diet is helathy.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Toaster on Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:07 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
ReconToaster wrote:eh, as long as they're taking proper supplements to make up for the nutrients that they're missing out on... it seems perfectly healthy to me.

I don't really understand to whole "anti-medication" mentality. You may say it's unnatural but.... well so is all medication. Being unnatural doesn't make it "bad."

Medication is there to help. If it can help you maintain your ideal life-style, by all means take it.

Couldn't I then argue that influenza is healthy, because with the proper supplements and medications, I will appear healthy? The point is, if you have to take a medication just to survive, you are not "healthy." Not partaking in meat, fish, milk, cheese, eggs, etc is unhealthy, despite the fact that people push the concept that vegetarians and vegans are inherently more healthy than us normal people.

How is medication any different from actual food? Both are artificially produced. Both are ingested orally. Both provide supplements to your body. We're not talking about whether or not the people are healthy, we're talking about whether or not the diet is healthy. In many cases, such supplements ARE PART OF the vegan diet.

What separates supplements from what you consider food? You might say that they're unnatural, but so are factory farms and massive-scale, chemically fertilized plantations.

(I read Gauz' post after writing this. His points are very similar to mine)
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Gold Spartan on Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:13 pm

The thing is, food can be grown and produced organiclly...Medication can't.
Not all food is articfically made. Most if not all medicine is.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:15 pm

Gauz wrote:In the end, if you take the nutrient supplements, you're still healthy...

Because...?

Gauz wrote:Influenza is unhealthy, because well.. we know why.

Ya, that isn't a cop out...[/sarcasm]

Gauz wrote:Vegan diet isn't, because the supplements and medication are apart of your diet. What difference does it make if you take your nutrients through a pill rather than through meat? While the food you actually eat in a vegan diet isn't exactly healthy, you get the supplement. I don't see the difference, wether you take the nutrients in your food, or in a pill doesn't really matter. Eating non-vegan foods just has the perk of having them already in there. I'm not going to argue that it's more healthy, though i'm sure you can, but i'm just going to say the diet is helathy.

The very nature of medication and supplements is that you take them because you are unhealthy, and need them to feign healthiness. That's why you take advil when you have the flu. You are unhealthy, and need the advil to seem healthy.

ReconToaster wrote: How is medication any different from actual food? Both are artificially produced. Both are ingested orally. Both provide supplements to your body. We're not talking about whether or not the people are healthy, we're talking about whether or not the diet is healthy. In many cases, such supplements ARE PART OF the vegan diet.

What separates supplements from what you consider food? You might say that they're unnatural, but so are factory farms and massive-scale, chemically fertilized plantations.

(I read Gauz' post after writing this. His points are very similar to mine)

The very nature of medication is that you take it because you are unhealthy. By your line of reasoning, I could say that eating paste is healthy, as long as your diet also includes getting your stomach pumped every now and then! A diet is healthy or unhealthy based on what you eat, not what medication you might also take with it. If I'm a schizophrenic, then I am not mentally healthy. Even if I take pills for it, I'm not mentally healthy, I'm just able to maintain the guise of mental health due to my reliance on pills.

And yes, there is an inherent difference between medicine and food.

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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Toaster on Tue Jan 26, 2010 9:19 pm

Gold Spartan5 wrote:The thing is, food can be grown and produced organiclly...Medication can't.
Not all food is articfically made. Most if not all medicine is.

It can be... but not at a rate which actually supports large-scale civilization. Try feeding the world without pesticides... it's not gonna happen.

Either way, does it really matter if it's artificial or not? As long as it provides the same nutritional benefits as actual food, I see no problem with it. Is it just that we fear making ourselves too dependent on artificial products? If that's the case... we fucked that up a looonnng time ago.

rot wrote:The very nature of medication is that you take it because you are unhealthy. By your line of reasoning, I could say that eating paste is healthy, as long as your diet also includes getting your stomach pumped every now and then! A diet is healthy or unhealthy based on what you eat, not what medication you might also take with it. If I'm a schizophrenic, then I am not mentally healthy. Even if I take pills for it, I'm not mentally healthy, I'm just able to maintain the guise of mental health due to my reliance on pills.


You're talking about pre-existing diseases and dysfunctions. If someone is mentally unhealthy, they take medication to COUNTER it. If someone has influenza, they take medication to COUNTER it. If someone is on a vegan diet, they take medication to SUPPLEMENT it.

They are not countering an already existing illness. They are preventing illness from occurring by supplementing their vegan diet with certain nutrients. I see no difference between I see no difference between that, and eating bananas in order to obtain more vitamin B. One way just happens to taste better. They contain the SAME NUTRIENTS. They are ingested in the SAME WAY. One is simply more artificial than the other, and any objection to that is superficial.

Rot wrote: And yes, there is an inherent difference between medicine and food.

Saying it doesn't make it true. Tell me, what nutritional difference there is between eating a normal diet, and eating a vegan diet with artificial supplements? I don't care whether or not one is more natural than the other. That's not what we're discussing.
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Gold Spartan on Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:01 pm

Vitamin B12. Comes from meat. Calcium. Vitamin D. Three needed vitamins. You're taking THREE pills to survive on your diet. Vegan diet isn't very durable. ESPECIALLY since one shortage of said pills is probably going to kill you.
On another note, Gauz and Recon say it's healthy....Yet the vote remains 0-18. :suspect:
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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:04 pm

ReconToaster wrote: You're talking about pre-existing diseases and dysfunctions. If someone is mentally unhealthy, they take medication to COUNTER it. If someone has influenza, they take medication to COUNTER it. If someone is on a vegan diet, they take medication to SUPPLEMENT it.

They are not countering an already existing illness. They are preventing illness from occurring by supplementing their vegan diet with certain nutrients. I see no difference between I see no difference between that, and eating bananas in order to obtain more vitamin B. One way just happens to taste better. They contain the SAME NUTRIENTS. They are ingested in the SAME WAY. One is simply more artificial than the other, and any objection to that is superficial.

As far as I'm concerned, you're taking supplements to counter the ill effects that will be caused by the vegan diet, just like you take medicine to counter psychosis and episodes as a schizophrenic.

ReconToaster wrote:Saying it doesn't make it true. Tell me, what nutritional difference there is between eating a normal diet, and eating a vegan diet with artificial supplements? I don't care whether or not one is more natural than the other. That's not what we're discussing.

The same can be said of your argument. The difference is that you have drawn a single parallel between supplements and food: that both are nutritious. Well, how about some differences?

  • You eat food. You do not eat medicine (rather, you swallow it whole so that it will reach your stomach before dissolving).
  • Food is naturally occurring. Most of the food you eat can be grown naturally. Most medicines, especially nutrition supplements, do not occur naturally, at all, ever.
  • You usually have to make some basic preparations for food. For example, the food might have to be cooked. Some food can even be eaten without preparation. Supplements have to be manufactured to get all of the right ingredients into the pill, and cannot be prepared by the average guy without special equipment that costs lots of money.
  • Food is filling. Pills are not.
  • We also eat food to enjoy the taste. Pills do not have any taste, and are not designed to be tasted.


So no, food != supplements.

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Re: Vegan: Healthy or Unhealty?

Post by Toaster on Tue Jan 26, 2010 10:20 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, you're taking supplements to counter the ill effects that will be caused by the vegan diet, just like you take medicine to counter psychosis and episodes as a schizophrenic.

You're obviously not very extensively concerned. We can argue semantics for as long as we want, but the fact of the matter is that Vegans takes vitamins to supplement the rest of their diet. Medication for psychosis and other mental disorders contain chemicals which have direct effects on the brain. They have no relation to food, other than being ingested orally.

Vitamins contribute the same nutritious material as food does. They both satisfy the same nutritional needs. Pills taken for the flu, and for psychosis, have entirely different purposes, and entirely different effects, and are therefore not really applicable to this argument.

Supplements can be considered to be "part of a diet" because they contribute to the same needs.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
  • You eat food. You do not eat medicine (rather, you swallow it whole so that it will reach your stomach before dissolving).
  • Food is naturally occurring. Most of the food you eat can be grown naturally. Most medicines, especially nutrition supplements, do not occur naturally, at all, ever.
  • You usually have to make some basic preparations for food. For example, the food might have to be cooked. Some food can even be eaten without preparation. Supplements have to be manufactured to get all of the right ingredients into the pill, and cannot be prepared by the average guy without special equipment that costs lots of money.
  • Food is filling. Pills are not.
  • We also eat food to enjoy the taste. Pills do not have any taste, and are not designed to be tasted.


So no, food != supplements.

Most of those things you listed aren't really relevant. Sure, supplements are different from foods, but they still both satisfy the same nutritional needs. Most of what you listed focuses on things like tradition, and what you, as a person, seem to favor.

So what if pills don't taste nice? Who cares if they aren't filling? They're taken alongside actual food, so those needs are already satisfied.

How the supplements are prepared, whether or not they're naturally occurring, and whether or not they can be prepared by the average person have nothing to do with supplemental/nutritional value.
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