Entitlement

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Entitlement

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:45 am

Sometime, it amazes me that anybody is still producing games for the PC.

I've seen a few of these play out, and I have to wonder. Just where is this sense of entitlement coming from? Do gamers as a group not realize how little $60 buys in the real world? Is it just a problem of perspective? I mean, what is it?

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Re: Entitlement

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Feb 13, 2011 12:50 am

well, there is still the fact that that $60 across a lot of people is a lot

look at minecraft. only fairly serious pc gamers know about it, and notch has made $20mil, and isn't doing shit to finish the game.

there is a certain extent to which developers need to actually act like they care about us.
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Re: Entitlement

Post by Lord Pheonix on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:06 am

Minecraft is made by a single guy though. Can't expect him to work as fast as a team.

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Re: Entitlement

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:22 am

theres actually 6 of them now. with still zero coming out.

and how hard is it to take the existing super awesome mods and turn them into real content?

he actually worked more before minecraft had a fan base.
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Re: Entitlement

Post by Divine Virus on Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:59 am

That was a good read. Well, good in the sence of interesting to read, but not so good in the sence of what gamers do/did to the medium that they love so much. I mean, I'm no "perfect gamer" by any means of the phrase...but damn if they're aren't some assholes and douchebag gamers out there. Oh hell, who am I fooling. I bet I'm guilty of something when it comes to being a gamer. Sad

Anyways, some of these incidents I did not know about so I was surprised by some of them. Especially the Minecraft hack attack.

Also, Case #4 seems all too familiar, wouldn't you say? Razz
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Re: Entitlement

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:04 am

oh and btw, i wasn't backing up what they did to minecraft, but much more recently, ln the last months he's been doing very little.

back then he was doing stuff regularly
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Re: Entitlement

Post by Vigil on Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:41 am

KristallNacht wrote:theres actually 6 of them now. with still zero coming out.

and how hard is it to take the existing super awesome mods and turn them into real content?

he actually worked more before minecraft had a fan base.

That was before it well noticed and now there'e a lot more pressure on him and his group to perform, and he's still trying to set up his company and try to make a living out of this.

Look at this forums attempt at a mod. It's only got to the beta stage after 3 years of development.

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Re: Entitlement

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Feb 13, 2011 4:30 am

'make a living'...


you are aware he has made over $10m himself.....right?

and once again, not hard to take existing mods and make them official content
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Re: Entitlement

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Sun Feb 13, 2011 10:06 am

With the amount of money he is making, he should be pumping out more content for the game. Lately the updates have contained little and have been infrequent.

And he should thow in some of the mods that people have made, at least as things tthat someone can turn on/off easily.

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Re: Entitlement

Post by Dud Doodoo on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:19 am

Vigil wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:theres actually 6 of them now. with still zero coming out.

and how hard is it to take the existing super awesome mods and turn them into real content?

he actually worked more before minecraft had a fan base.

That was before it well noticed and now there'e a lot more pressure on him and his group to perform, and he's still trying to set up his company and try to make a living out of this.

Look at this forums attempt at a mod. It's only got to the beta stage after 3 years of development.

I think this makes up for any lack of progress made during the last 3-4 years.


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Re: Entitlement

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Sun Feb 13, 2011 11:42 am

KristallNacht wrote:'make a living'...


you are aware he has made over $10m himself.....right?

and once again, not hard to take existing mods and make them official content
I call that BS, NT. If he took existing mods and made them official content, y'all would be whining about him not doing any real work and making cash off the work of modders.

Dud Doodoo wrote:
Vigil wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:theres actually 6 of them now. with still zero coming out.

and how hard is it to take the existing super awesome mods and turn them into real content?

he actually worked more before minecraft had a fan base.

That was before it well noticed and now there'e a lot more pressure on him and his group to perform, and he's still trying to set up his company and try to make a living out of this.

Look at this forums attempt at a mod. It's only got to the beta stage after 3 years of development.

I think this makes up for any lack of progress made during the last 3-4 years.

Oh, yes, yes, YES!
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Re: Entitlement

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Feb 13, 2011 1:12 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:'make a living'...


you are aware he has made over $10m himself.....right?

and once again, not hard to take existing mods and make them official content
I call that BS, NT. If he took existing mods and made them official content, y'all would be whining about him not doing any real work and making cash off the work of modders.

but at least we'd be whining about it while more and more features are being added to the server builds. we'll never know.

but instead, notch has shown images of a new launcher....because a new launcher is more important that chunk glitches, and content...
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Re: Entitlement

Post by Ringleader on Sun Feb 13, 2011 2:49 pm

Maybe people lose perspective because people are essentially animals and whenever the scope of their environment expands, so does their expectations.


It's certainly not a bad thing that people have unrealistically high expectations.
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Re: Entitlement

Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:44 pm

It is when those unrealistically high expectations effectively destroy an entire platform of gaming because people are self-entitled dicks.

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Re: Entitlement

Post by Divine Virus on Sun Feb 13, 2011 3:57 pm

I found another article to add to this.

http://www.destructoid.com/and-you-wonder-why-developers-hate-pc-gamers--193957.phtml
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Re: Entitlement

Post by Ringleader on Sun Feb 13, 2011 5:59 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:It is when those unrealistically high expectations effectively destroy an entire platform of gaming because people are self-entitled dicks.

So the group of individuals with unrealistically high expectations destroy entire gaming platforms?

Even though many times more people with more money and either lower expectations or unfamiliarity of the franchise in question are more willing to shell out money?

I mean, you'll find that most people with high expectations really just want really basic stuff. Personally, my only criteria is that later games don't F up their own established canon when it's not necessary at all, which when you think about it, isn't that hard a thing to mess up.

Pirating doesn't really tie into having high expectations, if people could readily steal games off of consoles, they probably would all the same. The only difference between a PC gamer and a console gamer is that a PC gamer uses a PC, and a console gamer uses a console, and stealing is more readily facilitated on PCs then on consoles.
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Re: Entitlement

Post by CivBase on Sun Feb 13, 2011 7:03 pm

Classic games are worshiped like gods amongst gamers. Once the forum dwellers-that-be have enshrined a game in their canon of classics, woe be upon the developer who wants to express their love for the series by, you know, actually making more of it.

*everyone looks at ringleader*



Ringleader wrote:It's certainly not a bad thing that people have unrealistically high expectations.

It is when those people ruin great games because the games didn't meet expectations.

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Re: Entitlement

Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Feb 13, 2011 8:04 pm

Ringleader wrote:So the group of individuals with unrealistically high expectations destroy entire gaming platforms?

First of all, that isn't what I said. The act of having unrealistically high expectations does not, in itself, destroy an entire game platform. But when people use those unrealistically high expectations as an excuse to pirate games, thereby denying developers of much needed revenue, yes, they are destroying entire game platforms.

Ringleader wrote:Even though many times more people with more money and either lower expectations or unfamiliarity of the franchise in question are more willing to shell out money?

I don't think you even comprehend just how rampant piracy is. Let's take an example from the article. Crysis was a mainstream game sold at a mainstream price. Piracy rating? 95% pirated, 5% legitimately bought. In 2008, Spore sold about 2.5 million copies (to my knowledge). In the same span of time, 1.7 million copies were pirated. That's about 41%! And don't even get me started on Indie games. When the Indie Bundle, a package whose proceeds cost you whatever you want and whose proceeds went to charity, 25% of the copies were pirated. That's fucking ridiculous!

Ringleader wrote:I mean, you'll find that most people with high expectations really just want really basic stuff. Personally, my only criteria is that later games don't F up their own established canon when it's not necessary at all, which when you think about it, isn't that hard a thing to mess up.

And if the games don't meet your criteria, don't buy them. That's how you send messages to publishers. If you pirate them, you're just saying "I wanted to play your game, but I'm a cheapskate who doesn't want to have to pay for it."

Ringleader wrote:Pirating doesn't really tie into having high expectations, if people could readily steal games off of consoles, they probably would all the same. The only difference between a PC gamer and a console gamer is that a PC gamer uses a PC, and a console gamer uses a console, and stealing is more readily facilitated on PCs then on consoles.

Yes, but people use those high expectations to justify their piracy. "I wouldn't have bought that game otherwise," is probably the most common excuse for piracy, and what is that if not saying the game didn't meet your expectations?

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Re: Entitlement

Post by Ringleader on Wed Feb 23, 2011 8:43 pm

Whelp, free market is free, if the video gaming industry is so marred by pirating, to the extend of still not making googolplexes of dollars, they'd hop right on the idea of completely and utterly restricting.

Which is kinda already what there doing.

The magnitude of a problem can usually be determined by the lengths of whoever's paying are willing to go. If we haven't reached total lockdown mode, then video game companies are still making some bank.

I mean, I really didn't contest to your point on piracy, and I DO know it's a super big problem, but, all imma say is, that if pirating on consoles was as easy and readily available, then you would suddenly see a lot of console gamers with 'higher expectations'

higher expectations aren't really higher expectations if they're just a cover for wanting to pirate games, the real problem is that, it's easy to pirate games and people want free stuff.

I mean, you suggest that high expectations ruin gaming platforms but only when used as an excuse to pirate games. First of all, real high expectations, and not fake high expectations = willingness to shell out more money for higher quality stuff, not willingness to steal things and settle for less. If you live in a fancy neighborhood, will you pay more in community dues or the upkeep of your house? Or if you want a fancy car with a bigger engine, does that mean you spend less money?

You can't really ruin a market with a demand for something, high expectations just create a demand for better, higher performance stuff, even if that market is a lot smaller.

You brought up Crysis, but it's no skin of my nose if the publisher didn't adequately copy protect the game, what, were they leaving it up to the goodness of man not to steal something awesome and easily attainable? It's a shame though, because I would rank Crysis as a game that people with higher expectations would legitimately pay lots of money for, and even in stores, it was always cheap as dirt. I'd pay a lot of money for Crysis if it was released now, but if they can't manage to safeguard their material, then by no means should you assume high expectations are wholly bad because a marketing blunder.

It's also kinda hard to determine whether or not a game is worth it without buying it and playing it, so whoever's next in line to say "IF YOU NO LIKE IT, DON' BUY IT!!!", try to keep that in mind. You could borrow it I guess, but I would still buy it so I could play it over and over again to see how well it ages.

I would, no joke, pay 200 dollars for this Halo remake, if they don't throw a monkey wrench into the story or gameplay. I would buy, the most Myhtical legendary version of this game if I thought it was truly paying homage to Halo CE, and not some kind of weird, sleazy business maneuver profiting off the nostalgia of the Halo series. (I hope M$ is reading this, drooling over the idea of someone spending 200$ on a video game)

The good thing is, like, if they did make is so those with real high expectations, and not fake ones approve of it, well, those with lower expectations probably won't have any sorta problem with it to begin with, so no one loses if they don't make unnecessary changes to the canon.

I feel kinda naughty when you group my justification, of higher expectations of video games in with PIRATES!!!!

The thing is, I'm saying that actual higher expectations don't harm video game developers. Who wouldn't agree that pirates hurt the video game market? Is that the kind of message I'm spreading?

Also, it's not like the difference between a Ferrari and a Camry, making the remake to satisfy those who wan't the canon not altered, and game play dynamic not changed around too drastically doesn't really really require too much effort or finances on the parts of the devs, they show up to work every day, with their punch card, then they go home. It's surprising how little I ask, and how it would ultimately benefit the Halo community if those with real high expectations, and those with lower expectations (those that wouldn't really care either way) are satisfied. It would mean I wouldn't have to post long debates in internet forums about it, isn't that enough for most of you?

SO, my high expectations aren't really high expectations, they're just wanting the developers to not make any unnecessary alterations for no reason.



Heck, Civbase, HECK, I like good games! What can I say?

I mean, a lot of folks here think I have unrealistically high expectations with Halo, but my main criteria is that canon isn't retconned when it need not be, and that the general game play dynamic isn't drastically altered, is that really too much to ask?
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Re: Entitlement

Post by Rotaretilbo on Thu Feb 24, 2011 5:18 pm

Ringleader wrote:Whelp, free market is free, if the video gaming industry is so marred by pirating, to the extend of still not making googolplexes of dollars, they'd hop right on the idea of completely and utterly restricting.

Which is kinda already what there doing.

You kinda just contradicted yourself...

Ringleader wrote:The magnitude of a problem can usually be determined by the lengths of whoever's paying are willing to go. If we haven't reached total lockdown mode, then video game companies are still making some bank.

I don't know if you've noticed, but DRM is prevalent and many companies are taking additional lengths to try and prevent piracy. EA is talking about making you buy access to multiplayer separate, thereby requiring you to register your legitimate copy of the game. Valve has Steam, which actively checks for piracy while you are online. However, the companies have to be careful. Many customers, paying and pirates alike, raged at DRM. In fact, quite a bit of piracy is "justified" by fighting against DRM. Paying customers don't like jumping through hoops to get what they paid for, and companies have to take into account their opinions too.

Ringleader wrote:I mean, I really didn't contest to your point on piracy, and I DO know it's a super big problem, but, all imma say is, that if pirating on consoles was as easy and readily available, then you would suddenly see a lot of console gamers with 'higher expectations'

And?

Ringleader wrote:higher expectations aren't really higher expectations if they're just a cover for wanting to pirate games, the real problem is that, it's easy to pirate games and people want free stuff.

But they are higher expectations. Whether they are being used to justify theft or not, the unrealistically high expectations are there. People believe that the video game industry owes them high quality games for free. Follow that line of reasoning, and you end up with piracy.

Ringleader wrote:I mean, you suggest that high expectations ruin gaming platforms but only when used as an excuse to pirate games. First of all, real high expectations, and not fake high expectations = willingness to shell out more money for higher quality stuff, not willingness to steal things and settle for less. If you live in a fancy neighborhood, will you pay more in community dues or the upkeep of your house? Or if you want a fancy car with a bigger engine, does that mean you spend less money?

Pirates do not have "fake" high expectations. Their expectations are just as real as my own. The only difference is that I don't feel entitled to high quality games. I demand high quality games because I know that by creating a demand for high quality games, publishers will answer by creating them, if for no other reason than to cash in on a demand. Pirates do the complete opposite. They feel entitled to high quality games, and if those games are not of the utmost quality, they believe they are entitled to take them for free. In doing so, all the publisher sees is that their current games are in high demand, and that if they could just eliminate the option of piracy, they would be able to cash in on that demand. What's a great way to eliminate piracy? Move to a console where piracy is extremely limited. Low and behold, what are most publishers doing? Oh, moving to a console where piracy is extremely limited. What does this mean for the other platforms? Shit out of luck.

Ringleader wrote:You can't really ruin a market with a demand for something, high expectations just create a demand for better, higher performance stuff, even if that market is a lot smaller.

Unless you use your high expectations, which are real, to justify stealing.

Ringleader wrote:You brought up Crysis, but it's no skin of my nose if the publisher didn't adequately copy protect the game, what, were they leaving it up to the goodness of man not to steal something awesome and easily attainable? It's a shame though, because I would rank Crysis as a game that people with higher expectations would legitimately pay lots of money for, and even in stores, it was always cheap as dirt. I'd pay a lot of money for Crysis if it was released now, but if they can't manage to safeguard their material, then by no means should you assume high expectations are wholly bad because a marketing blunder.

Seriously? A marketing blunder? You think it is the developers fault that PC games are nearly impossible to steal-proof? Talk about passing the buck.

Ringleader wrote:It's also kinda hard to determine whether or not a game is worth it without buying it and playing it, so whoever's next in line to say "IF YOU NO LIKE IT, DON' BUY IT!!!", try to keep that in mind. You could borrow it I guess, but I would still buy it so I could play it over and over again to see how well it ages.

You could borrow it, rent it, hell, you could even buy it and then, you know, return it. It isn't like your options are never ever play it or buy it.

Ringleader wrote:I feel kinda naughty when you group my justification, of higher expectations of video games in with PIRATES!!!!

Keep in mind that I have rather high expectations in my video games as well.

Ringleader wrote:The thing is, I'm saying that actual higher expectations don't harm video game developers. Who wouldn't agree that pirates hurt the video game market? Is that the kind of message I'm spreading?

The point is, piracy is most often justified by an unreasonable sense of entitlement among PC gamers. Many many people take their high expectations too far, and the entire PC market has suffered greatly because of it.

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Re: Entitlement

Post by CivBase on Thu Feb 24, 2011 9:54 pm

I'm not saying high expectations are bad. Quite the opposite. However, they do not justify pirating a game. I think we both agree on that.

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