The Avengers

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Re: The Avengers

Post by Lord Pheonix on Wed Feb 29, 2012 5:59 pm

Well was definitely advanced ships of some kind and coming from a giant beam from space.


Im putting money that Loki is opening a rift to the Skrull World and working with them.

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Re: The Avengers

Post by Vigil on Wed Feb 29, 2012 6:04 pm

Lord Pheonix wrote:Well was definitely advanced ships of some kind and coming from a giant beam from space.


Im putting money that Loki is opening a rift to the Skrull World and working with them.

I'd say you have a pretty safe bet there.

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Re: The Avengers

Post by Vtrooper on Wed Feb 29, 2012 8:13 pm

Well i guess i'm seeing this movie now!
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Re: The Avengers

Post by Angatar on Wed Feb 29, 2012 10:10 pm

Captain America was such a shitty film, I have no hope for this one.

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Re: The Avengers

Post by Vigil on Thu Mar 01, 2012 7:10 am

Angatar wrote:Captain America was such a shitty film, I have no hope for this one.

What made you think that? I watched it recently, along with Thor and I was pleasantly surprised by both.

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Re: The Avengers

Post by Nocbl2 on Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:05 am

I think he means it was cheesy. Which it was, but that was kind of the point. It needed to be a " 'MERICA FUCK YEAH" thing.
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Re: The Avengers

Post by Vigil on Thu Mar 01, 2012 8:13 am

Nocbl2 wrote:I think he means it was cheesy. Which it was, but that was kind of the point. It needed to be a " 'MERICA FUCK YEAH" thing.

Given how the comic originally started with Captain America punching Hitler in the face, it wouldn't have worked if they'd played it dead serious.

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Re: The Avengers

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Thu Mar 01, 2012 10:44 am

Vigil wrote:
Angatar wrote:Captain America was such a shitty film, I have no hope for this one.

What made you think that? I watched it recently, along with Thor and I was pleasantly surprised by both.
Because everyone involved was a freaking idiot.
I realize it's a comic-book movie. I realize that the bad guys aren't going to win. But when Hydra is so stupid that handful of starving POWs can rout them with captured weapons that they've never used before, or that the lead researcher is the one in charge of capturing the Captain rather than, say, someone who has actually had military training, I lose all respect for the writers.

Oh, and...
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Re: The Avengers

Post by Angatar on Thu Mar 01, 2012 1:00 pm

Vigil wrote:
Angatar wrote:Captain America was such a shitty film, I have no hope for this one.

What made you think that? I watched it recently, along with Thor and I was pleasantly surprised by both.
I was surprised with Thor too, one of the best films I've seen recently.

Captain America, however... I hated everything about it. There were no redeeming qualities.

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Re: The Avengers

Post by Ruski on Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:34 pm

Vigil wrote:
Angatar wrote:Captain America was such a shitty film, I have no hope for this one.

What made you think that? I watched it recently, along with Thor and I was pleasantly surprised by both.

As was I. The only thing that was kinda unforgivable and burned into my memory was from Captain America, and that was the musical section. Shudders.
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Re: The Avengers

Post by Vigil on Thu Mar 01, 2012 3:50 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Vigil wrote:
Angatar wrote:Captain America was such a shitty film, I have no hope for this one.

What made you think that? I watched it recently, along with Thor and I was pleasantly surprised by both.
Because everyone involved was a freaking idiot.
I realize it's a comic-book movie. I realize that the bad guys aren't going to win. But when Hydra is so stupid that handful of starving POWs can rout them with captured weapons that they've never used before, or that the lead researcher is the one in charge of capturing the Captain rather than, say, someone who has actually had military training, I lose all respect for the writers.

Oh, and...

I believe the element of surprise was on their side, and the soldiers were probably distracted by all the damage the Cap had done. As for the guns, they're guns how difficult are they to shoot? That especially given how many troops Hydra seemed to have.

The research thing was a bit dumb, but as Hydra was a research division I could let it slide.

Oh and the ending? I was under the impression that the plane was severely damaged and couldn't make it to a air base in time and still had some of those bombs on board. He didn't use the bomb or a parachute because he had to fly it manually to get it into somewhere safe.

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Re: The Avengers

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Fri Mar 02, 2012 3:55 am

First off, I'll admit that I somewhat enjoyed Captain America, and "No redeeming qualities" is one of the last ways I'd describe it.

Vigil wrote:
I believe the element of surprise was on their side, and the soldiers were probably distracted by all the damage the Cap had done.
Except, throughout the movie, the Hydra soldiers were pretty mediocre. Not only are they charging, one at a time, a man who can unite their forehead and brainstem with a single punch, but they can't hit anything but his shield... which just happens to be immune to their disintegrator-rays. As soon as a non-Hydra picks up a Tessarect Weapon, he becomes Super Effective!

And I thought it was neat that the Hydra weapons were inspired by actual Nazi projects, with the implication that they became feasible once Hydra harnessed the power of the Tessarect. I'm more disappointed that this didn't trickle down into more practical things like, say, machine guns, mortars, land mines, and rockets.

Vigil wrote:As for the guns, they're guns how difficult are they to shoot?
Well, I'd assume that soldiers who were trained to use them, have handled them for a few months, and have actually fought with them before would have SOME advantage over raw troops who have been used as slave labor for anywhere between a few days to a few months.

Vigil wrote:The research thing was a bit dumb, but as Hydra was a research division I could let it slide.
Hydra had a lot of mooks for a research division, doncha think?
The only reason that the scientist ended up in charge of the trap is because the Red Skull is... idiot is too soft a word for it. His response to anybody walking back from a defeat against Captain America (Or, rather, anybody with any actual COMBAT EXPERIENCE against the ONE MAN ARMY that's rolling the Nazis back out of western Europe) is to shoot them. Because, you know, that's the sort of thing that comic book villains are supposed to do.

The Red Skull wasn't a mastermind. He wasn't a transhuman. He was monkey with delusions of grandeur.

Vigil wrote:Oh and the ending? I was under the impression that the plane was severely damaged and couldn't make it to a air base in time and still had some of those bombs on board. He didn't use the bomb or a parachute because he had to fly it manually to get it into somewhere safe.
... How much more safe can the middle of the Northern Atlantic be? If that plane crashed, all it would kill is a few unlucky orcas.

Honestly, I think it could have worked. That plane was bound for the icy waters of the Atlantic, and Captain America was going with it, because that's the way the story goes. What infuriates me is that he sat down for a five minute chat with his girlfriend, rather than race around the plane looking for a way out.

I find it sad that the romance angle ruined that part for me, because the romance subplot in Captain America: The First Avenger is probably one of the better-handled examples in superhero cinema. Considerably better than the one in Thor.
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Re: The Avengers

Post by Vigil on Fri Mar 02, 2012 8:19 am

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Except, throughout the movie, the Hydra soldiers were pretty mediocre. Not only are they charging, one at a time, a man who can unite their forehead and brainstem with a single punch, but they can't hit anything but his shield... which just happens to be immune to their disintegrator-rays. As soon as a non-Hydra picks up a Tessarect Weapon, he becomes Super Effective!

And I thought it was neat that the Hydra weapons were inspired by actual Nazi projects, with the implication that they became feasible once Hydra harnessed the power of the Tessarect. I'm more disappointed that this didn't trickle down into more practical things like, say, machine guns, mortars, land mines, and rockets.

These are movie Nazi's. It's the stormtrooper effect. A highly trained and regimented military that the minute a protagonist or non-member appears they appear to be supremely dumb and canon fodder.

Well that two out of four there, and I think it would of been difficult to include the other two as easily in the film. They might have had them, we just didn't see them.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Well, I'd assume that soldiers who were trained to use them, have handled them for a few months, and have actually fought with them before would have SOME advantage over raw troops who have been used as slave labor for anywhere between a few days to a few months.

A gun's a gun. Point and shoot. If we want to give them more credit than their probably due, they were probably testing the guns on site given the large amount of manufacturing going on there, so the prisoners might have seen this and have a rough idea what they were dealing with.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Hydra had a lot of mooks for a research division, doncha think?
The only reason that the scientist ended up in charge of the trap is because the Red Skull is... idiot is too soft a word for it. His response to anybody walking back from a defeat against Captain America (Or, rather, anybody with any actual COMBAT EXPERIENCE against the ONE MAN ARMY that's rolling the Nazis back out of western Europe) is to shoot them. Because, you know, that's the sort of thing that comic book villains are supposed to do.

The Red Skull wasn't a mastermind. He wasn't a transhuman. He was monkey with delusions of grandeur.
Hmm...

I'd argue that's faithful to the source material. He's always been a exaggerated version of Hitler (Who was already pretty exaggerated.) So delusions of grandeur is what he's known for.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:... How much more safe can the middle of the Northern Atlantic be? If that plane crashed, all it would kill is a few unlucky orcas.

Honestly, I think it could have worked. That plane was bound for the icy waters of the Atlantic, and Captain America was going with it, because that's the way the story goes. What infuriates me is that he sat down for a five minute chat with his girlfriend, rather than race around the plane looking for a way out.

I find it sad that the romance angle ruined that part for me, because the romance subplot in Captain America: The First Avenger is probably one of the better-handled examples in superhero cinema. Considerably better than the one in Thor.

I thought he crashed in the North Atlantic, or was just of the coast when he was going down. Might of hit Greenland maybe?

Yeah, but unfortunately they needed for him to end up there and frozen. The original comic was hardly an improvement. The plane they were trying to stop on blew up, killing Bucky and sending the Cap into the sea.

Agreed there, but they had to wrap it up somehow, because she's not going to be appearing in the Avengers for obvious reasons.

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Re: The Avengers

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Fri Mar 02, 2012 11:48 pm

Vigil wrote:These are movie Nazi's. It's the stormtrooper effect. A highly trained and regimented military that the minute a protagonist or non-member appears they appear to be supremely dumb and canon fodder.
It's an effect that I'm getting tired of.

Vigil wrote:Well that two out of four there, and I think it would of been difficult to include the other two as easily in the film. They might have had them, we just didn't see them.
Yeah, when the huge Allied forced attacked the last Hydra base at the end, perfect opportunity. But no, The Greatest Transhuman General of ALL TIME only ever saw fit to arm his troops with infantry weapons.

Vigil wrote:
Hmm...

I'd argue that's faithful to the source material. He's always been a exaggerated version of Hitler (Who was already pretty exaggerated.) So delusions of grandeur is what he's known for.
Like I said, a monkey with delusions of grandeur. I don't care how faithful they are to the source; when he's not a credible threat, he's not a good villain.

Vigil wrote:Yeah, but unfortunately they needed for him to end up there and frozen. The original comic was hardly an improvement. The plane they were trying to stop on blew up, killing Bucky and sending the Cap into the sea.

Agreed there, but they had to wrap it up somehow, because she's not going to be appearing in the Avengers for obvious reasons.
I don't have a problem with them chucking Cap into the sea. I have a problem with them making it contrived. The final conversation could have been shorter, the plane more clearly damaged and uncontrollable.

It could and should have been handled better, that's all I'm saying.
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Re: The Avengers

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