TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by Nocbl2 on Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:06 pm

NT, by your logic, if most morals are based on religion, then are atheists just blank husks?

I'd say that religion can shape your morals, but it should more so attribute to personal experience.
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Fri Jan 13, 2012 10:22 pm

KristallNacht wrote:Is there really proof that meth users have greater potential to harm? Hell, aderal is mostly just meth as is. And that dividing line is determinate on a typical Risk Management system. Is it high potential for minor harm, and zero chance of death, and very low potential for medium harm? Is it high potential for death? They already have risk management system for determining what kinds of risk are acceptable.
Reasonable enough, but there are still a lot of other unclear definitions that I've pointed out.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by KristallNacht on Fri Jan 13, 2012 11:10 pm

you haven't yet pointed out anything particularly obscure at all
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:42 am

*sigh*

NT: People can do what they want so long as it doesn't hut anyone.

CivBase: Define 'hurt'.

NT: Physical harm, theft, or destruction of property.

CivBase: What about public nudity? Child pornography? Blackmail? Fraud?

*Exit NT, Enter KrAzY*

KrAzY: Physical harm includes emotional harm, which covers Child Pornography. Blackmail and Fraud are theft. Public nudity doesn't hurt anyone else, so people should be allowed to do it. Popular sovereignty works when the situation is obvious.

CivBase: What are the boundaries for emotional harm? Blackmail and Fraud aren't theft; you make something yours rather than just take it. What if public nudity causes emotional harm? What makes something obvious other than a majority agreeing on the issue?

KrAzY: The human body is cool and it doesn't hurt anyone. If you don't want to see it, look away. Its presence alone has never hurt anyone. I'm not going to argue Blackmail and Fraud with you. In both, you're attempting to posses something that isn't rightfully yours. That's theft. Also, why should the government be able to ban something just because you don't like it?

CivBase: It's fine that you are okay with the visibility of all of the human body, but other people aren't. The presence of a genitals and a nude person aren't the same. You said theft is taking something that's 'rightfully' yours. Define 'rightfully'. Everybody wants the government do make their morality laws based on their own morals. You, NT, and everyone else want the same thing. I'm not saying majority rule is best, but what else can we use to determine laws regarding morality? We can't just not do anything regarding morality - murder is still a moral issue no matter why you think it's bad.

*Enter NT*

NT: The government shouldn't do anything regarding morality. There's no reason for it. The comfort of the few never outweighs the rights of the many. I don't like drugs, but they don't hurt other people so they're okay. Anyone who thinks government should enforce morals is stupid, selfish, and sucks no matter what religion they are.

CivBase: Didn't I end my post with a counter to what you just said? Nobody's talking about the few. In the current system, it's the many that decide. What about when drugs endanger other people? Drinking and driving doesn't hurt anyone by itself, but it's still dangerous to others around the driver. Religion has nothing to do with this. Religion affects your morals, but so do a ton of other things.

NT: 'Don't murder' defends people's rights, so it's an exception. Laws are dictated by the loudest, not the many. They can fool people into thinking they have more support than they do. Just because drunk driving hurts people doesn't mean that alcohol should be outlawed. The same can be said for meth. Morals are completely based on religion. Everything else just affects ethics.

CivBase: What rights does 'Don't murder' defend? We use a republic to counter the effect of people just being loud. So you think actions can be outlawed based on their potential to harm others? How do you decide what potential is the dividing line? Religion is not the only deciding factor. A lot of people have the same religion but different morals. In this case, morals and ethics are effectively the same.

NT: Is there proof that just taking meth endangers others? The government already has a system for deciding acceptable risks.

CivBase: Fair enough, but you need to answer my other questions.

NT: You didn't have any other questions.



If you haven't caught on, I'm referring to all the bold questions above.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by Nocbl2 on Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:39 pm

You guys should take this to the debate section.
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by Lord Pheonix on Sat Jan 14, 2012 1:44 pm

nah, no one gives a fuck

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by KristallNacht on Sat Jan 14, 2012 7:02 pm

I didn't say you didn't ask any questions, I said you hadn't presented anything obscure at all.

Child pornography (I'm assuming 13 and below) violates the child rights as they aren't at an age where they can really stop whats happening from happening.

Blackmail is a simple business transaction that doesn't hurt anyone that doesn't have reason to be hurt.

Fraud is violation of a contract.

and emotional harm can't be reasonably limited as simply breaking up with your girlfriend can cause emotional harm to her.
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:04 pm

So then morals aren't as black-and-white as you're making them out to be. Who gets to decide the morals of the country? Who decides what is right and wrong?

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by KristallNacht on Sat Jan 14, 2012 9:15 pm

No one gets to decide, a strict set of questions determine what is and isn't.

And they are rather black and white as I just answered those using a very simple decider.

and once again, morals have nothing to do with it. It's not about it being 'wrong' it simply takes away someone else's rights. It's really that simple.
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:35 pm

You seriously think that people should be allowed to do anything they want as long as it doesn't violate someone else's rights? Honestly, I think that's one of the worst ideas I've ever heard. Businesses would rip customers a new one. People would destroy themselves and social structure would collapse.











Good luck.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sat Jan 14, 2012 10:52 pm

Tell ya what... to illustrate my point, you come up with a list of rights people have (be as specific as possible) and I'll come up with legal and illegal situations based on those rights. If you just want the current rights from the constitution, please list them.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by KristallNacht on Sat Jan 14, 2012 11:17 pm

how could businesses rip customers a new one? They wouldn't have any more customers.

I'd say the basic rights are life, and the possession of things.

I really don't see how everyone being allowed to simply live how they want to live is such a fucked up idea.

I already linked you to the walled city in china that existed without any law whatsoever, and its population boomed, skyscrapers were built, they even set up utilities. They had access to medical care, many had storefronts that ran 'legitimate' businesses. They even had various places of religious worship (in different belief systems) and it was a city of complete social and political anarchy.
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:53 am

Pure capitalism only works when all customers are perfectly informed. We know that will never happen.

The 'walled city' was small and densely populated as apposed to the United States. Also, that article does not depict Kowloon as a utopia. Some people got along fine there, but violent crime rates were incredibly high and the city was extremely unsanitary.


So the ONLY rights you think people should have is life and property?

That means slavery and battery are okay.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Jan 15, 2012 3:59 pm

Well clearly slavery goes against being able to have your own life, and battery is in direct threat of ending life as well.

And Kowloon is an example. Now impose laws against violence and theivery and it would fix all its problems.
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:38 pm

KristallNacht wrote:Well clearly slavery goes against being able to have your own life, and battery is in direct threat of ending life as well.
Slavery is a violation of liberty, not life. Battery is not necessarily a threat against life.

KristallNacht wrote:And Kowloon is an example. Now impose laws against violence and theivery and it would fix all its problems.
You know what? I'm never going to convince you of otherwise. If you actually believe Kowloon is a model utopia, there is nothing I can say other than I disagree.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:50 pm

Its only problem was complete lawlessness. A free market reigned and there is zero evidence it didn't work. So, as no other example exists of social anarchy (aside from maybe the Afghan hill tribes) Kowloon is the only thing to discuss. The people were tolerant, enterprising, and generally considerate. All without any laws.
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sun Jan 15, 2012 5:59 pm

All I see is a single example of social anarchy that didn't completely melt down during the short time it existed (likely due to its unusual circumstances). Everything I've read says the people were nice but the living conditions were as poor as could be and robbery was a major problem in and around the city. I suppose robbery didn't affect the residents much, though, because the city was populated by the poorest of Hong Kong.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Jan 15, 2012 7:59 pm

So the core issues are solved with laws against theft and murder.
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:24 pm

No, only one issue is solved with laws against theft and murder.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by Lord Pheonix on Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:30 pm

CivBase wrote:No, only one issue is solved with laws against theft and murder.


pretty sure theft AND murder are two issues, or i've been doing shit all wrong.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by Felix on Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:33 pm

Lord Pheonix wrote:
CivBase wrote:No, only one issue is solved with laws against theft and murder.


pretty sure theft AND murder are two issues, or i've been doing shit all wrong.

Well, I guess you can count it as one. If you think about murder as "stealing someone's life".
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:53 pm

Lord Pheonix wrote:
CivBase wrote:No, only one issue is solved with laws against theft and murder.

pretty sure theft AND murder are two issues, or i've been doing shit all wrong.
Kowloon didn't suffer from a murder problem. At least, nothing I read or posted about pointed towards such.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Jan 15, 2012 9:56 pm

The issue I believe you're talking about being low standards of living was caused by the fact no one really had any money that was there in the first place. It just wasn't a luxorious place. That's like using Compton to make a judgement about first world countries.
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by CivBase on Sun Jan 15, 2012 10:09 pm

I don't know anything about Compton and Google isn't giving me any useful information other than that it's a part of the Los Angeles metro. Still, your argument is that I'm taking a small example and using it to overgeneralize. Do you have OTHER examples aside from Kowloon? Kowloon's standard of living was drastically lower than the areas immediately surrounding it - making me suspect that the cause was likely its lack of government.

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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

Post by KristallNacht on Sun Jan 15, 2012 11:47 pm

And simply the fact only the poor would have gone to a place where things were likely to be stolen?
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Re: TCF's Vote on the Republican Nomination

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