Gay Marriage

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Gay Marriage

Post by A_Bearded_Swede on Mon May 21, 2012 10:29 pm

Spekwyse wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:I dislike the idea of gay marriage because marriage is inherently an institution of the church.
Uh, no its not. The concept of marriage predates Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It has nothing to do religion and nothing to do with the church.

Rot wrote: I have no problem with separating marriage and the various government benefits it normally entails and creating a sort of civil union for everyone, of which, marriage is one type.

So in other words just allowing marriage.... Why bother calling it different? What makes two men/women loving each other any different then a man and a woman? In a country where everyone is equal, why segregate the two? Splitting the two would just promote more hate for the gays, make them "Different". The same thing was done to the blacks in the past...

KrAzY wrote:nobody said they have to call it anything different, they just can't expect to be wed in a church, and if the federal government says that a church MUST wed them then they have broken the first amendment.
Thats not what the movement wants. Gay couples just want to be recognized the same way a heterosexual couple is recognized.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Lord Pheonix on Mon May 21, 2012 10:41 pm

It is currently legal to marry your first cousin in more states than it is to marry another man/woman.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Nocbl2 on Mon May 21, 2012 11:00 pm

I assume we're talking about the 'civil union' thing, in which case it should be allowed. Just because some one's religion says that there should be no gay people evar does not mean that the government should hold to that belief.

Remember pursuit of happiness? (which was intended to be ownership of property, but the general idea) It's one of our natural rights. Anyone should be free to pursue happiness unless it affects the life or liberty of others.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by dragoon9105 on Mon May 21, 2012 11:24 pm

The issue is about Gay couples in a Civil Union being able to receive the same financial rights and privileges as Straight married couples. Religion has nothing to do with it.

I agree that they should, but we already have a fail safe for this in the Bill of rights (which says States need to respect the laws, Permits and ect ect of other states.) All that's really being 'forced' here is forcing the states to follow the constitution and not the bible. People keep bringing religion into the issue as an excuse or out of Ignorance, it all comes down to Money in the end.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by CivBase on Tue May 22, 2012 12:27 am

I'll just lay it out there: I think relations are wrong. As a christian I see them as sinful in nature and, as an average Joe, I see them as extremely disruptive to a family when children are involved.

HOWEVER...

The government's job isn't necessarily to punish people for doing wrong things. The government's job is to protect people's rights and to prevent others' wrong-doings from affecting people negatively.

I think that homosexuality should be legal and that homosexual persons should be allowed to attain the same legal status and rights as a married couple.

BUT WAIT!

That's already happened.


So please tell me what the hell the "Gay Rights" movement is all about. Is there something I'm missing? Is someone missing out on a tax-cut at the state level or something? Because I haven't heard of a single legitimate reason for anyone to be concerned with the current laws.


Last edited by CivBase on Tue May 22, 2012 1:14 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue May 22, 2012 12:42 am

Nocbl2 wrote:Remember pursuit of happiness? (which was intended to be ownership of property, but the general idea) It's one of our natural rights. Anyone should be free to pursue happiness unless it affects the life or liberty of others.
Not in the constitution, and as Heinlein pointed out, it's an inane right to begin with. Nobody is stopping you from pursuing happiness. Twenty years into a twenty-five year Gulag sentence, and you'll still be pursuing happiness.

Up here in Washington State, the gays and lesbians have civil unions. Under the "Everything but Marriage" law, civil unions are treated exactly the same as marriage. And guess what they're still fighting for.
Sorry, I just don't get it.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by CivBase on Tue May 22, 2012 1:12 am

From what I've seen, it's pretty much always about semantic BS. Christianity wants to reserve the term 'marriage' for use as a religious term but homosexuals want to use it as a description of their own union.

There is no difference in the recognition. What you call it doesn't change what it is.

IMO, the government should forgo using the term marriage in any case and simply treat every relationship as a civil union. Let 'marriages' be sorted out by the religions.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Rotaretilbo on Tue May 22, 2012 3:04 am

Exactly. I don't care if gay couples get all of the benefits from the government normally associated with marriage. I want to divorce the term "marriage" and the government institution altogether (see what I did there?).

Spekwys wrote:Uh, no its not. The concept of marriage predates Christianity, Judaism, and Islam. It has nothing to do religion and nothing to do with the church.

Marriage may predate written records, but it doesn't predate religion. I'm not saying that marriage is an institution of Christianity, or any one religion, but it has become inherently tied to religion. In most societies, marriage was in some way related to religion. In ancient Israel, for example, marriage was defined by the Law, which was a religious institution. In ancient China, religion was literally created by the gods. More importantly, because marriage in the United States is adopted from European practices, marriage in Europe was considered a religious institution for at least 1500 years.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by RX on Tue May 22, 2012 8:00 am

Just let 'em do it.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by CivBase on Tue May 22, 2012 9:11 am

We can't tell whether or not the term 'marriage' was founded religiously or secularly. If we could, this would be a very quick and easy debate.

I just can't understand what the problem is. It's just a word. It isn't illegal for homosexual couples to refer to their union as a marriage. Churches wont recognize it, but what do they fricking care? Churches don't recognize ANY secular marriage. Nobody is saying they can't do ANYTHING. So what is the problem?

Again, I think the government should just consider all legal 'marriages' as civil unions. People can still call it marriage.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Tue May 22, 2012 9:37 am

CivBase wrote:I think that homosexuality should be legal and that homosexual persons should be allowed to attain the same legal status and rights as a married couple.

BUT WAIT!

That's already happened.

What the hell are you babbling on about? Already happened? Maybe where YOU live, but there are plenty of places where there is little to no recognition.

In 2004, voters approved a constitutional amendment, Michigan State Proposal - 04-2, that banned same-sex marriage and civil unions in the state. It passed with 58.6% of the vote. The Michigan Supreme Court later ruled that public employers in Michigan would not be legally allowed to grant domestic partnership benefits based on the recently passed measure.

So, in my state, that is how things stand. Have gay couples attained the same legal rights and status as a married couple? Hell no.

Now, take a look at this map, I pulled it from a simple Wikipedia search
Spoiler:
Blue states are those either supporting same-sex marriage or civil unions granting rights similar to marriage.
Red states are those with some sort of ban or severe limitation on same-sex marriage, with dark red banning all forms of same-sex unions.

EDIT: For clarification, by a 'state supporting' a stance, I mean the adopted stance of a state government and then the laws in the state regarding that stance.

This is in no way fits your claims of legal equality.



Last edited by Kasrkin Seath on Tue May 22, 2012 10:35 am; edited 1 time in total

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by CivBase on Tue May 22, 2012 10:04 am

Public support or disapproval does not make legal equality.

I certainly wasn't babbling. The very next line asked if there was something screwy at the state level somewhere, which is EXACTLY what you cited.

I'd say that what the Michigan state government did was wrong. Civil unions should be legal.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue May 22, 2012 10:16 am

What Michigan State government did was wrong? Try 21 states full on saying no and 5 more putting severe restrictions.



And churches saying "Nobody is saying they can't do ANYTHING" yes. yes they are. They are saying they can't be married, saying they can't get the same tax breaks and other government financial support that two people together can have and if had their way would have every gay person either sent to a "straight camp" or shot.

That sounds a bit harsh, but I don't doubt that religious people would rather just kill all the gays at some point if given their way.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Tue May 22, 2012 10:32 am

tad hyperbolic to go from religious people not supporting gay marriage to "they want them all dead"


it is a state issue though, not a federal one
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue May 22, 2012 11:33 am

KrAzY wrote:tad hyperbolic to go from religious people not supporting gay marriage to "they want them all dead"



Well Religion hasn't been shown to be very tolerant of those who don't follow them.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Tue May 22, 2012 12:24 pm

neither have anybody ever
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue May 22, 2012 12:47 pm

They've got the longer track record.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Tue May 22, 2012 12:59 pm

not in recent history they don't.

humans are violent and bad to each other no matter what they believe in, in the end the only difference is what they try to justify it with. for Atheists its money or power, to religious fanatics it is G0D. I have never met a religious person who wanted to kill all gays. I HAVE met atheists who wanted to euthanize or sterilize all religious people due to their "defect"


I am an atheist too, but thinking that only religious people are violent, or that they wish violence on others that don't believe in their ways more than atheists do is ignorant. everyone is the same in the big picture of things

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Angatar on Tue May 22, 2012 1:14 pm

Just let gays and lesbians have marriage. I don't see how changing everyone to "civil union" is any different than just changing gays to "marriage".

Oh right, religion... idiots.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue May 22, 2012 1:14 pm

I do not believe that only religious people are violent, that would be the stupidest logic of all time.

I do not like religion because they try their damned hardest to push their beliefs on everyone else and it looks even worse to me because they are trying to push the belief of their imaginary friends ideas onto people and forcing THEM to live by it.



Because these people believe in one thing that means they have the right to force everyone else to live by that belief is just stupid and a violation of rights and human decency.

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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Tue May 22, 2012 1:30 pm

the only time I've had a non-family member actively and directly try to push their religious beliefs on me was a mormon who stood on a street corner and struck up a conversation with me and was very polite when I told him I didn't believe in his beliefs and wasn't interested.

everybody is forcing their beliefs on everybody else, athiests do it, most religions do it, everybody. They don't have any more power to do so than anybody else, unless you want to go back in history for examples which is stupid to do for a current issue, also going back in time opens up the Nazis and the Soviets, and nobody wants to see those in this debate


also, you obviously do think religious people are more violent, as you justified your comment about religion wanting to murder all the gays by claiming thats just what they do. if you actually agree that all people are equally violent against people who disagree with them about things then that wouldn't have been brought up in the first place.

nobody here seems to think that gay people shouldn't have the ability to get married, its just a stupid argument about schemantics.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue May 22, 2012 2:20 pm

Lord Pheonix wrote:I do not like religion because they try their damned hardest to push their beliefs on everyone else and it looks even worse to me because they are trying to push the belief of their imaginary friends ideas onto people and forcing THEM to live by it.
Have I ever forced you? I believe the only time I brought up religion was when you asked.

Lord Pheonix wrote:Because these people believe in one thing that means they have the right to force everyone else to live by that belief is just stupid and a violation of rights and human decency.
Some do, and it is.
The rest of us don't force. We ask.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Gauz on Tue May 22, 2012 4:13 pm

Most states ban same-sex marriage and all forms of same-sex unions.

Also people don't just want civil unions, they want to be able to marry. No one asks to "civil union" you. People ask to marry you, and everyone should have that right.

Marriage is beyond religion. Marriage is a legal and civil union, therefore everyone should have the right to wed.

Interracial couples weren't able to marry at one point, but now they are able to because they have the same rights as every American does. Same-sex couples are no different.
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by KrAzY on Tue May 22, 2012 4:22 pm

Gauz wrote:
Also people don't just want civil unions

Marriage is a legal and civil union


SEMANTICS
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Re: Gay Marriage

Post by Lord Pheonix on Tue May 22, 2012 5:04 pm

I am completely fine with pretty much all Religions on the spiritual front. I believe everyone should believe whatever they want. Christians believe in their version of Lord Pheonix, Muslims theirs, Hindus theirs, and that's all cool. Whatever helps people go through life. I can respect that.


On an individual level a religious person is fine and for the most part respectful of others beliefs.


But when they get in large groups and into politics they start pushing their beliefs down your throat and start trying to force the rest of the world to live their way.


Me? If I was gay but I wasn't allowed to marry my love because a Religion I don't believe in says that it's wrong and my love is an abomination and we should burn in hell for it. I would be rather pissed.



And it's not just Semantics, Seath's map shows very well that most states in the United States not only want gays to not be able to marry but to AS WELL not be able to go into any kind of "civil union"

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Re: Gay Marriage

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