Destiny.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Gauz on Fri Feb 22, 2013 9:51 am

The indie industry weeps.
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Re: Destiny.

Post by laxspartan007 on Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:11 am

CivBase wrote:Right now, I just want an epic-scale shooter with rock-solid gameplay, captivating environments, motivating story, and a game I can go to when all we've seen from AAA shooters for the past decade has been MMS garbage and series after series falling flat on its face.

oh is THAT all?
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Re: Destiny.

Post by Lord Pheonix on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:06 pm

CivBase wrote:Right now, I just want an epic-scale shooter with rock-solid gameplay, captivating environments, motivating story, and a game I can go to when all we've seen from AAA shooters for the past decade has been MMS garbage and series after series falling flat on its face.
[/quote]


To be fair because of the books they did have to work inside of parameters instead of just doing whatever they wanted.

Going in they had to have every character die, and with like 6 of them it pretty much had to be one by one so as to give each death a meaning. Remember Aliens when Bishop, Vasquez and the Smart Gunner Drake die? Remember-able moments.

How about the 3 or four guys who die all at once in the first encounter with the aliens? Tend not to remember any of them (except the Sergeant maybe).


I played all the FPS Halo's and I don't really see a huge difference between them. Every game just seemed like get to point B from where you are at point A for cutscene. I know that is what all games generally boil down to but I just didn't feel engaged in it as much as other games. I didn't feel like me blowing up a generator or X really did much since in the following cutscene Cortana is probably just going to chime in saying "You did it Chief!!!. Wait....picking up something on covenant chatter........THEY HAVE A BACKUP!!! Whatever you just tried to stop is happening anyway!!! Get to point B NAOW!!!"

For 4 games.

So I don't see Reach as really having to many problems.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Rotaretilbo on Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:10 pm

CivBase wrote:Yes, it had a good story, but it wasn't the first.

This is a strawman. I didn't say it had a good story, and was therefore innovative. I said it was essentially the first game to have a very deep and substantial plot without employing more cut scenes than gameplay, the way games like Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy were notorious for. Its use of scripted events to immerse the player in the story was practically unprecedented, and became a core part of many story-driven games, even today, allowing the volume of cut scenes to be diminished to a far more tolerable level.

I gave Bungie credit for their work on the matchmaking system. It was innovative. The least you can do is give Half-Life the same courtesy.

Lord Pheonix wrote:To be fair because of the books they did have to work inside of parameters instead of just doing whatever they wanted.

Going in they had to have every character die, and with like 6 of them it pretty much had to be one by one so as to give each death a meaning.

That's not really accurate at all.

A) The parameter of "all the Spartans die" was dictated by Bungie, not Nylund. The entire plot of Halo: The Fall of Reach was outlined in the Halo Story Bible. Nylund just fleshed out the concepts. Moreover, I'm almost certain that Halo: CE's manual indicates John to be the last surviving Spartan. So, in this particular regard, Bungie did not have to work within the parameters of the books. They set this particular parameter.

B) Bungie didn't give a fuck about the books. They clearly broke with all of the books Nylund wrote, as if for no better reason than to be spiteful. They changed how the invasion happened, who was present, what those people were doing at the time, everything. To argue that they were forced to work within the parameters of the books is outrageous, given that they clearly never did.

C) Bungie found a way around the parameters in this case anyway. Noble Team were all Spartan-IIIs and Jorge, who was retconned as not being with the other Spartan-IIs. None of the books dictated that all of the Spartan-IIIs died at Reach, because none of the books even brought up Spartan-IIIs at Reach. Noble Team didn't have to die. The only thing set in stone was that Reach had to fall.

Bungie did whatever the fuck they wanted with Noble Team, and they chose for Noble Team to die.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by KrAzY on Fri Feb 22, 2013 5:43 pm

noble team was a hodgepodge of bad stereotypes with bland character, they needed to die
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Re: Destiny.

Post by Lord Pheonix on Fri Feb 22, 2013 6:31 pm

Forgot they were spartan 3's.

I stopped caring about halo when HWF fell honestly.


Last halo thing I bought was Halo 3. I borrowed every game after that and haven't read a book after the first 4.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by laxspartan007 on Sat Feb 23, 2013 6:08 pm

i just pick and choose what parts of the cannon i like, between the books and the games. It usually ends up being mostly book cannon, but i think its just more interesting and enjoyable that way.
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Re: Destiny.

Post by CivBase on Sun Feb 24, 2013 7:46 pm

laxspartan007 wrote:
CivBase wrote:Right now, I just want an epic-scale shooter with rock-solid gameplay, captivating environments, motivating story, and a game I can go to when all we've seen from AAA shooters for the past decade has been MMS garbage and series after series falling flat on its face.

oh is THAT all?
"I say all this as though it's easy to do, but if nothing else, Bungie has done a pretty good job of it for as long as I've known them"

Quite.

Rotaretilbo wrote:
CivBase wrote:Yes, it had a good story, but it wasn't the first.

This is a strawman. I didn't say it had a good story, and was therefore innovative. I said it was essentially the first game to have a very deep and substantial plot without employing more cut scenes than gameplay, the way games like Metal Gear Solid and Final Fantasy were notorious for. Its use of scripted events to immerse the player in the story was practically unprecedented, and became a core part of many story-driven games, even today, allowing the volume of cut scenes to be diminished to a far more tolerable level.

I gave Bungie credit for their work on the matchmaking system. It was innovative. The least you can do is give Half-Life the same courtesy.
I wasn't trying to use a strawman argument - that's just how I interpreted your response. Half Life also isn't the first game to have a decent story without cutscenes. It's a great example of that notion, but it's not the first to adhere to it.

I like the Half Life series a lot and I've recommended it to a lot of people, but I do not consider it to be especially innovative. We could probably pick at nuances and find things it did before any other game but, in the end, Half Life is not a game known for drastically changing the industry; it's known for being a darn good shooter.

And yes, Halo: Reach had a lackluster story and poor characterization to say the least, but I'm not going to drastically change my opinion of a developer because of one bad game any more than I would love a developer because of one good game. I'm more cautious about Destiny than I was about Reach because of it, but I'm still keeping an eye on it because I know it is coming from a dev who has historically released games which I thoroughly enjoyed.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Rotaretilbo on Sun Feb 24, 2013 11:39 pm

CivBase wrote:I wasn't trying to use a strawman argument - that's just how I interpreted your response. Half Life also isn't the first game to have a decent story without cutscenes. It's a great example of that notion, but it's not the first to adhere to it.

Name one. I can't think of any games with substantial, deep plots that didn't make use of cut scenes at all, that predates Half-Life. Especially if we're talking about the shooter genre, specifically.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by dragoon9105 on Mon Feb 25, 2013 12:31 am

Why does everyone say half-life has no cut-scenes, Halflife has cut-scenes they are just Ingame and you have freedom of movement. A cutscene is a designated point where Exposition/Story is given before you are allowed to Progress. You still have to wait for the scientists to shut up before you can go and throw the crystal in the Sci-fi Portal plot machine and then sit through the sequence of seeing the facility pretty much go to hell.

Then add Valve went the completely opposite direction forcing players in Hl2 who really don't give a damn about the story to sit and wait for Eli/Alyx/Kliener to perform their scripted "Ok now your allowed to progress" action. I spent most of those sequences jumping around like a Hyperactive frog.

In short there's nothing different between locking you in a room with maybe a few toys and drilling exposition into your head then just taking away control and doing the same thing. Its up to personal opinion what someone prefers. Though the more common method for shooters i've seen is in-game cutscenes but with control taken away or severely limited (Deus Ex and Halo both use this style)
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Re: Destiny.

Post by Vigil on Mon Feb 25, 2013 2:35 am

Rotaretilbo wrote:
CivBase wrote:I wasn't trying to use a strawman argument - that's just how I interpreted your response. Half Life also isn't the first game to have a decent story without cutscenes. It's a great example of that notion, but it's not the first to adhere to it.

Name one. I can't think of any games with substantial, deep plots that didn't make use of cut scenes at all, that predates Half-Life. Especially if we're talking about the shooter genre, specifically.

Dun dun, dun dun, dun dun, duna da, MARATHON.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Lord Pheonix on Mon Feb 25, 2013 5:53 am

Vigil wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:
CivBase wrote:I wasn't trying to use a strawman argument - that's just how I interpreted your response. Half Life also isn't the first game to have a decent story without cutscenes. It's a great example of that notion, but it's not the first to adhere to it.

Name one. I can't think of any games with substantial, deep plots that didn't make use of cut scenes at all, that predates Half-Life. Especially if we're talking about the shooter genre, specifically.

Dun dun, dun dun, dun dun, duna da, MARATHON.


I believe Hacker has forgotten System Shock if he does not cou-cou-cou-count opening scenes.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Vigil on Mon Feb 25, 2013 6:19 am

Lord Pheonix wrote:
Vigil wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:
CivBase wrote:I wasn't trying to use a strawman argument - that's just how I interpreted your response. Half Life also isn't the first game to have a decent story without cutscenes. It's a great example of that notion, but it's not the first to adhere to it.

Name one. I can't think of any games with substantial, deep plots that didn't make use of cut scenes at all, that predates Half-Life. Especially if we're talking about the shooter genre, specifically.

Dun dun, dun dun, dun dun, duna da, MARATHON.


I believe Hacker has forgotten System Shock if he does not cou-cou-cou-count opening scenes.

I wanted to say System Shock 1 and 2, but they had cutscenes at the start and end, so I didn't know if that counted.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Lord Pheonix on Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:10 am

I think 2 came after Half Life though

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Vigil on Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:16 am

Lord Pheonix wrote:I think 2 came after Half Life though

That is correct.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:40 pm

Vigil wrote:Dun dun, dun dun, dun dun, duna da, MARATHON.

Allow me to rephrase. Without cut scenes, and without otherwise interrupting gameplay to drop massive exposition text for you to read. While Marathon is an amazing game, the terminals used to further the story are effectively the forerunners (pun intended) to in-game cut scenes. The idea is to not interrupt gameplay in order to drive the story.

Lord Pheonix wrote:I believe Hacker has forgotten System Shock if he does not cou-cou-cou-count opening scenes.

System Shock is a lot closer to what I was talking about. While it doesn't appear to be using scripted events the way Half-Life did, the use of the little audio logs was a brilliant way to introduce exposition without interrupting gameplay. I still think Half-Life changed the industry with its use of scripted events to drive the plot (as opposed to cut scenes, which interrupt gameplay, or audio logs), but I'll definitely say that System Shock was innovative in its own right.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by KristallNacht on Mon Feb 25, 2013 3:49 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
Allow me to rephrase. Without cut scenes, and without otherwise interrupting gameplay to drop massive exposition text for you to read. While Marathon is an amazing game, the terminals used to further the story are effectively the forerunners (pun intended) to in-game cut scenes. The idea is to not interrupt gameplay in order to drive the story.

this is using a very loose idea of 'gameplay'. Does simple loose control of the character in a small area constitute "gameplay" (Ala Portal 2's Opening), or does the game still have to be going on, something akin to the bulk of story content that happens in Battlefield 3 (outside of the framing device cutscenes)?

Many would argue placing additional restrictions on a player above and beyond the normal gameplay restrictions would constitute an interruption of gameplay.
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Re: Destiny.

Post by Nocbl2 on Mon Feb 25, 2013 7:25 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
Rotaretilbo wrote:
Allow me to rephrase. Without cut scenes, and without otherwise interrupting gameplay to drop massive exposition text for you to read. While Marathon is an amazing game, the terminals used to further the story are effectively the forerunners (pun intended) to in-game cut scenes. The idea is to not interrupt gameplay in order to drive the story.

this is using a very loose idea of 'gameplay'. Does simple loose control of the character in a small area constitute "gameplay" (Ala Portal 2's Opening), or does the game still have to be going on, something akin to the bulk of story content that happens in Battlefield 3 (outside of the framing device cutscenes)?

Many would argue placing additional restrictions on a player above and beyond the normal gameplay restrictions would constitute an interruption of gameplay.
Which would in turn make Rot's point about Half-Life not interrupting gameplay to do some story moot.
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Re: Destiny.

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 25, 2013 8:56 pm

Something that physically interrupts your control of the character. In Portal 2, you could at least move around and look at the environment and the like. This method of storytelling is more immersive than, say, watching your character do something badass or reading a page of text.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Lord Pheonix on Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:12 pm

I never got around to playing the original Half Life but I did play the second where control of your character was taken away from you by way of being pinned down a few times. It was for the sake of creating hopelessness in both the situations that I remember.


Actually Half Life 2 could have cutscenes if you consider the game cutting to a scene of The G-Man speaking to you in wherever the fuck he is a cutscene.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:22 pm

I would consider Half-Life to have a cut scene at the end, because you lose the ability to move after fighting the final boss (the G-man scene you mentioned), and I would consider the beginning and end of Half-Life 2 to be cut scenes.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Lord Pheonix on Mon Feb 25, 2013 9:36 pm

You do have control of the head so you are still playing and doesn't make you feel like you are out of the game. It makes you feel like you are still playing and are fucking helpless to stop the bad guys.

I had that feeling of helplessness more so at the end of HL2 moreso than in any game with a cutscene.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by CivBase on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:08 pm

Rotaretilbo wrote:
CivBase wrote:I wasn't trying to use a strawman argument - that's just how I interpreted your response. Half Life also isn't the first game to have a decent story without cutscenes. It's a great example of that notion, but it's not the first to adhere to it.

Name one. I can't think of any games with substantial, deep plots that didn't make use of cut scenes at all, that predates Half-Life. Especially if we're talking about the shooter genre, specifically.

First example to pop into my head is Medal of Honor: Allied Assault. Even if you claim that MoH:AA didn't have a deep enough story (which, relative to HL2, I'd agree with), it's not really 'innovation' if you're just combining things which other games have done before and saying you're the first to do both at the same time. With that attitude, every game is innovative.

And, of course, you've already admitted that System Shock did it before HL. And... I quite agree with dragoon's comments on the HL2 cutscenes. Again, Half Life 2 was a fantastic game, but not because of innovation.

All of this aside, I had several other games in that list with HL2 which illustrate my point. Innovation is a neutral trait which can help a game as much as hurt it. I hope Bungie can be innovative in a positive way with Destiny, but that's not what makes me interested in the game to begin with.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Rotaretilbo on Mon Feb 25, 2013 10:58 pm

CivBase wrote:First example to pop into my head is Medal of Honor: Allied Assault. Even if you claim that MoH:AA didn't have a deep enough story (which, relative to HL2, I'd agree with), it's not really 'innovation' if you're just combining things which other games have done before and saying you're the first to do both at the same time. With that attitude, every game is innovative.

You seem to have forgotten which game we were talking about, because MoH:AA was released four years after Half-Life. It also benefited from us all knowing ahead of time what the plot was.

CivBase wrote:And, of course, you've already admitted that System Shock did it before HL.

That System Shock did something closer before Half-Life. You still haven't named a game which used scripted events in the way Half-Life did to create a deep plot. System Shock was a step in the right direction, but it wasn't the same, either.

CivBase wrote:And... I quite agree with dragoon's comments on the HL2 cutscenes. Again, Half Life 2 was a fantastic game, but not because of innovation.

A cut scene is when the game cuts in order to display a scene. Hence the name. The idea of using scripted events to avoid disrupting the flow of the game and immersion was practically unheard of in a story-driven game. By dragoon's definition, story-driven games are just one big cut scene.

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Re: Destiny.

Post by Gauz on Tue Feb 26, 2013 10:41 am

If y'all wanna argue cutscenes maybe it shouldn't be in the destiny thread.
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Re: Destiny.

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