REAL issues

ReconToaster wrote:Seeing all the upset that came about after the banning of same sex marriage in California, I've gotten really tired of hearing about all these non-issues. The concepts of things like abortion and gay marriage are not really issues. They are distraction put forth by those in power to keep all you simple minded people away from thinking about the real problems in this world, like war, poverty, pollution, and health care.

Healthcare? Insurance is more important than the murder of children? They are issues. Maybe you don't think they're as important, but they're issues. Personaly, I don't think pollution is a big isssue right now. So what if the planet will burn in 500 years? What are you doing about it?
Poverty is probably at the bottom of my list. Why? Because we live in the US. If you want to get rich, you darn well can. If you don't try, you just go down. That's how it works. Some may have to try harder than others, but anyone can do it. As for other countries, that's not our problem until these people are abused by their government. Do you think Spain gives a crap about our healthcare? No, because it's not their business.

ReconToaster wrote: Whether or not gays can marry under a religious institution is a decision that should be made by the churches that hold the ceremonies. Remember the whole idea of separation of church and state that this country was founded upon? Why should the issue of gay marriage EVER be taken to the federal level?

Gay union (legal marriage, no religion involved) should be a right just as the union of a man and a woman is a right. Why should two people be held back by the deranged beliefs of another?

And this is why I don't have a solid standing on this debate.

ReconToaster wrote: Abortion is also a stupid thing to argue about. The beginnings of a human fetus are no more valuable or special than the beginnings of a pig fetus.

So I suppose humans are no more valuable or special than pigs?

ReconToaster wrote:I'm tired of so many fellow humans taking on the belief that they are so much more important than any other race. It is a delusion. We are all equally unimportant.

This is your argument? Saying that humans don't matter? I can tell you right now, don't do it, because it all boils down to religion, and do you want another religious fight?

ReconToaster wrote: Even if abortion was banned, it would only increase the number of already illegal abortions, wherein the baby is killed via physical harm to the mother. So tell me, what is the "moral" thing to do?

The moral thing to do would be to put up safehavens, adoption centers, and other various services so they don't have to kill the baby.

ReconToaster wrote: These are all non-issues that should NEVER be taken to a federal level.

That may be so, but they're here. What is an issue recon? It is a conflict of intrest within our society, and when this conflict of interest is about morality, it is quite often brought to the federal level. You can whine all you want, but it doesn't change anything.

ReconToaster wrote: Something else that I noticed while reading through the recently closed "gay marriage" thread was the way multiple people kept repeating a phrase along the lines of "If you discriminate me for discriminating gays, you're discriminating my religion."

Why is it that we have all deemed discrimination against someone's religion to be "Off-limits?" If anyone is deranged enough to put their trust in any form of organized religious bullshit, I'd say they are the most deserving of discrimination as anyone. How is your average ghost seeing lunatic any different from someone who believes in "angels?"

Well guess what, I am a Christian. I go to church, I believe in God, heaven, hell, angels, demons, satan, ect. Do I let my religion control my life? Hell yah! But does it make a big impact? No.
In fact, I didn't use religion in the gay marriage thread at all. In fact, I fought those that did. You can discriminate against me if you want, but remember, I think you're crazy too, so it isn't going to help you any more than it will help me. You may as well just drop this now.

ReconToaster wrote: The fact that someone was "raised to believe" in something does not make their beliefs acceptable. I was raised to believe in Santa clause, Hell, I was raised a presbyterian, but I was still intelligent enough to discern fact from fiction by the time I was 12.

Santa's a fake, but Saint Nicholas is (well... was) real. Recon, the fact that someone was raised that way doesn't make it acceptable, but if they so choose to believe it when given the other side, then it is acceptable. I have seen both sides of the argument, and I choose Christiantiy.
Everyone has their views. Some think some views are crazy, others think they're perfectly reasonable. That's why there will always be conflict in the world.

ReconToaster wrote: This world needs reform. We need to stop focusing our attentions on false distraction and start worrying about the real issues in this world, and we need to stop excusing people for blindly following archaic stories.

May God bless your soul.

PiElord wrote:And finally, health care.
Again, the Republicans here think that "Socialistic Healthcare" is a terrible idea that will just end with us all living in communes.
Universal Healthcare may not be perfect, but it's better than letting people just die because they don't have the cash to live.

You do realise that healthcare is insurance, right? What is the point of insureance if everyone has the same? Then all the company does is raise price. Insureance isn't insureance if it is just handed out. Insureance is about covering your losses. So with univeral healthcare, there are three things I could see that happen:

1. We all get the healthcare and the hospitals just raise prices so we all have to pay 100%.
   
2. We all get the healthcare and as the hospitals raise their prices, the government raises our coverage. Soon, the hospitals can't get enough money to stay afloat and the government has to take that over. Now healthcare is pointless, so that is just allout removed and the governments mismangement of the hospitals causes millions to die.
   
3. We all get the healthcare, but the government sets it at a happy median so that hospitals still have barely enough to get by. Qualtiy goes down, doctors quit because the job that made them rich nolonger pays much at all, and millions of people that previously had healthcare just had their coverage cut in half by the government and never got a chance to use their previous insurance.

Canada? You mean where they have to wait 6 months just to get a checkup due to lack of doctors?

ReconToaster wrote: In response to civbase, what I said about abortion was that the beginning of a pig fetus in no more important than that of a human. They are just clusters of cells.

But mear clusters of cells have no potential of being a human. These have more chance of being a baby than a child has of being an adult.

ReconToaster wrote:They have no sense of self awareness and can feel no pain or emotion. I think that late term abortions are usually wrong. But Civbase, what about the situation wherein having the baby would kill the mother? Is it ok to abort then? Or is the future life of a fetus somehow more precious than that of a grown woman?

You don't have to kill the baby, take it to a safehaven. If it would kill the mother, than surgicaly remove it. If that wont work, that's the only time I might be okay with it.

ReconToaster wrote:

CivBase wrote:You don't have to kill the baby, take it to a safehaven. If it would kill the mother, than surgicaly remove it. If that wont work, that's the only time I might be okay with it.

And what of the cost of check-ups and the delivery to a person with no insurance? That's why underground abortions happen.

Cost of checkups? That's where the whole thing comes along where you make the choice before intercourse. I know the next thing you're going to bring up is rape, something that is very unlikely. If someone is raped though, then the government should pay the necessary fees so long as there was no concent (such, even though it's rape if their under 18 no matter what, if the girl gave concent then the govt shouldn't be responsible).
People have the misconception that pro-life people are not pro choice. The thing is, we are. But the choice comes before intercourse.