Foreign or Domestic

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Foreign or Domestic (cars)

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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by KristallNacht on Mon Dec 29, 2008 11:34 am

Kasrkin Seath wrote:hmmm.....
I honestly dont see how Ford and GM vehicles fail... my family has had the same vehicles for neary a decade(the third one FOR more than a decade) and they run perfectly fine.

oh shit? a decade? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu

oh wait...all cars can last that long...
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by PiEdude on Mon Dec 29, 2008 12:39 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:hmmm.....
I honestly dont see how Ford and GM vehicles fail... my family has had the same vehicles for neary a decade(the third one FOR more than a decade) and they run perfectly fine.

oh shit? a decade? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu

oh wait...all cars can last that long...

My Dad's Jeep Comanche(aka the last pickup truck ever made by Jeep) that he bought off my Grandpa(his father in law, and yes it was kind of a joke) is two years older than me, and it's still driveable.

It needs to have quite a few parts replaced though, because my dad worked it too hard on the last job it did(hauling literally a ton of dirt) before it was retired permanently to my garage.

Still, a pretty durable truck.
Not sure why Jeep stopped making 'em.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by CivBase on Mon Dec 29, 2008 2:41 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
  1. German cars, because of the materials that go into them, will survive a pile-on better than any of their foreign counterparts. The Smart Car will survive crashes better than a Chevy Suburban.
lol, you know what will survive a pileup better than a smart car? A good, old-fassion, muscle car (AKA: Steel Metal Deathtrap [...that is, for the other driver])

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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:06 pm

KristallNacht wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:hmmm.....
I honestly dont see how Ford and GM vehicles fail... my family has had the same vehicles for neary a decade(the third one FOR more than a decade) and they run perfectly fine.

oh shit? a decade? FFFFFFFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUu

oh wait...all cars can last that long...

name some that run that long when put in pretty bad conditions during the entirety of their use
Our longest running one is a Ford Ranger which is 15 Years old(Third Generation, Rangers have been around for fifty years)

EDIT: I just did some research on the Ford Ranger Fourth Generation and it seems Ford fucked up with it somehow because they are having a good bit of problems and are now cancelling it. Rather than try and make the Ranger something its not and screw it up in the process, let it be the Modest, Durable and Effective beast of a truck that it was. Dumb fucking CEO's...
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:28 pm

Kasrkin Seath wrote:1. well, it doesn;t mean better engineering since its simply better materials
It's also how those materials are used.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:3. That is probably very true
Which is why the Virgin Mary occasionally crops up on the floor of my high-school locker room.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:4. I believe you mean the T-34(which used a bit of Americal Technology)
They were better, but because of their complex design they were alot harder to build, which ultimately meant they were flooded by the Allies Cheaper and more numerous tanks.
I must point out that it took 3 Shermans to defeat one Panzer.

Oh, and the industry that later built the T-34 was helped along by the Germans, during the 20s and early 30s.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:Even with the proper materials and support they would not have been able to churn out enough vehicles.

Had the Allies not resorted to terror-bombing (I stand firmly beside that label, due to Dresden) the Panzer IV and Panther tanks would have been produced in numbers able to counter what the Americans and Soviets were able to bring to bear. Of course, had the Germans pushed the production of jet engines when they first came up with them and built the Messerschmidt 282, the Allied air losses would have made bombing campaigns impossible. If the Germans had the political will to use Tabun and Sarin when they had them, the Russians would have lost a majority of their army invading through Poland and the Ukraine.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Mon Dec 29, 2008 6:36 pm

I was watching the military channel once and except for the latest two versions of Panzers, the Sherman's were equal to or out-performed the Panzer series.

Now we are on to the industry to produce it? I thought it was about the design of the T-34's(which were heavily based off of designs made by an American)

Also, even without the firebombings the Shermans could have been produced in much greater quantities.

I agree with the Total War stance taken by the Allies during WWII, so its not really a terror bombing to me, just all part of a war. If the Germans had used Chemical Warfare, I can gaurantee the Allies would have returened the favor. It would only have made for a much bloodier WWII.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Mon Dec 29, 2008 7:31 pm

Kasrkin Seath wrote:I was watching the military channel once and except for the latest two versions of Panzers, the Sherman's were equal to or out-performed the Panzer series.
And the Panzer III-IV were sidelined by the Panzer V during and after Normandy, meaning that Shermans needed to be upgraded with larger turrets. Even then, they could only defeat Panzer Vs if they outflanked them or got REAL close. Later, the IVs were upgraded with a better turret that could easily defeat Sherman frontal armor.

At long range, the Sherman was better only if the Panzers were using solid shot. The 75mm gun of the M4 Sherman could defeat the armor of the Panzer I-III, but the Sherman itself was rather underarmored. And it had vulnerable petrol tanks. When that thing went up, it went up in flames. Hell, the English named them "Ronsons", after a cigarette lighter. Apparently, that lighter was marketed with the slogan "Lights up the first time, every time!"

The allies didn't win because of their tanks. They won from numerical superiority and more consistent supplies... which came from aerial supremacy.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:Now we are on to the industry to produce it? I thought it was about the design of the T-34's(which were heavily based off of designs made by an American)
What I'm talking about is how the Germans and the Russians got together and tested what works best in a tank. A lot of German thought influenced Russian design... although the Russians should have been listening when it came to mobile warfare doctrine.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:Also, even without the firebombings the Shermans could have been produced in much greater quantities.
But not in the quantities needed to overcome the German defences.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:I agree with the Total War stance taken by the Allies during WWII, so its not really a terror bombing to me, just all part of a war.
As do I. My main gripe is that they were still talking about trying the men responsible for the Buzzbomb campaign for war crimes.
We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won't allow them to write "fuck" on their airplanes because it's obscene!

Kasrkin Seath wrote:If the Germans had used Chemical Warfare, I can gaurantee the Allies would have returened the favor. It would only have made for a much bloodier WWII.
True. But here, Germans had the advantage. The Allies still only had the chemical weapons of WWII. The Germans discovered nerve gases by accident, and then developed them, but didn't use them because Hitler forbade their use. Then again, certain circumstances had the Germans convinced that Britain had nerve gases as well, and they were afraid of retaliation.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by BBJynne on Mon Dec 29, 2008 8:58 pm

the more modern Ford vehicles are actually really good.

they've still got bad rep from earlier cars though... in America

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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Mon Dec 29, 2008 9:45 pm

Ok Rasq, end point is the Americans made a cheaper and easy to produce tank whereas the Germans made a better but more costly one. Throughout history, quantity has proven to better than quality, however.

"Quantity has a quality all its own"
----------
I looked up the fourth Generation Rangers and found out that the complaints were from buyers who had Rangers from a specific batch of a specific plant and had very bad dealerships... its still stupid that they didn't check the stuff that could malfunction.

All in all The Big three do make excellent vehicles nowadays, its just people are still griping about how shitty the stuff they made a few decades ago was
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:34 pm

Kasrkin Seath wrote:Ok Rasq, end point is the Americans made a cheaper and easy to produce tank whereas the Germans made a better but more costly one. Throughout history, quantity has proven to better than quality, however.
Tell that to the Israelis.

And in any case, the German cars are still superior to the American cars. Still not sure how we got onto the subject of WWII tanks, but I think I'm to blame for that.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Tue Dec 30, 2008 2:43 pm

It all depends on how many numbers and what quality.



Yes, for the most part, but thay are also more expensive so that makes it harder to buy one, so I would say the slightly inferior but cheaper american vehicles are better
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by PiEdude on Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:26 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
Kasrkin Seath wrote:Ok Rasq, end point is the Americans made a cheaper and easy to produce tank whereas the Germans made a better but more costly one. Throughout history, quantity has proven to better than quality, however.
Tell that to the Israelis.

And in any case, the German cars are still superior to the American cars. Still not sure how we got onto the subject of WWII tanks, but I think I'm to blame for that.

Now tell that to the Israelis.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by KristallNacht on Tue Dec 30, 2008 7:01 pm

German enginering made the current concepts of military tech. The tank was crap until the Germans had a go at it under Hitler. Same with grenades and mines.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by PiEdude on Tue Dec 30, 2008 8:29 pm

KristallNacht wrote:German enginering made the current concepts of military tech. The tank was crap until the Germans had a go at it under Hitler. Same with grenades and mines.

I believe the same is true of modern pesticides...
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:16 pm

PiEdude wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:German enginering made the current concepts of military tech. The tank was crap until the Germans had a go at it under Hitler. Same with grenades and mines.

I believe the same is true of modern pesticides...
And, in a related field... nerve gases.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by PiEdude on Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:37 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
PiEdude wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:German enginering made the current concepts of military tech. The tank was crap until the Germans had a go at it under Hitler. Same with grenades and mines.

I believe the same is true of modern pesticides...
And, in a related field... nerve gases.
That's kind of what I was getting at...
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:53 pm

PiEdude wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
PiEdude wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:German enginering made the current concepts of military tech. The tank was crap until the Germans had a go at it under Hitler. Same with grenades and mines.

I believe the same is true of modern pesticides...
And, in a related field... nerve gases.
That's kind of what I was getting at...
Mhmm... I thought you were talking about Zyklon B.

By the way, who the Hell voted Chinese?
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by PiEdude on Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:08 pm

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
PiEdude wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
PiEdude wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:German enginering made the current concepts of military tech. The tank was crap until the Germans had a go at it under Hitler. Same with grenades and mines.

I believe the same is true of modern pesticides...
And, in a related field... nerve gases.
That's kind of what I was getting at...
Mhmm... I thought you were talking about Zyklon B.

By the way, who the Hell voted Chinese?

Yes, that was it.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by JB on Tue Dec 30, 2008 11:04 pm

U.S. or German thats about what we go with cause it seems like most other foreign cars are always breaking down or requiring new parts
we have a truck 17 years old 190,000 almost 200,000 and it still runs perfectly, dont know what it is though ill ask... but ya its some sort of Ford
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Kasrkin Seath on Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:28 am

If its a ford its probably a Ranger
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Rasq'uire'laskar on Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:16 pm

PiEdude wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
PiEdude wrote:
Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:
PiEdude wrote:
KristallNacht wrote:German enginering made the current concepts of military tech. The tank was crap until the Germans had a go at it under Hitler. Same with grenades and mines.

I believe the same is true of modern pesticides...
And, in a related field... nerve gases.
That's kind of what I was getting at...
Mhmm... I thought you were talking about Zyklon B.

By the way, who the Hell voted Chinese?

Yes, that was it.
Except... Zyklon B wasn't a nerve gas. It was a cyanide-based insecticide.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by Rotaretilbo on Wed Dec 31, 2008 2:23 pm

Kasrkin Seath wrote:1. Which almost always increases their costs. Many people would rather get a less expensive vehicle even if it had lower crash test ratings, especially in this day and age.

That's odd. Last time I checked, safety is advertised probably more than price. Have you ever noticed that the amount of airbags in cars is going up? And cheap to fix doesn't matter if you die in the crash.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:2. Typically doesn't quite cut it when it comes to an entire grouping of something. Thats like saying "Since this river has safe drinking water, all other rivers must have safe drinking water"

Your analogy is flawed. You see, you confused the word typically with a single example. Typically means a large majority. Further, you didn't compare two groups in your analogy. So if 80% of rivers in one area are known to have better drinking water than all rivers in another area, then assuming that the rest probably have better drinking water as well isn't all that bad. The fact remains that a majority of German cars get better mileage.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:3. Which is bad, not good

I think it was a joke. Germans hate Nazis now more than any other nation, besides maybe Poland.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:4. Your point? The germans spent alot more time building one of their tanks than we did one of ours. Look how far that got them.

Erm...German tanks pretty much pwnd all other tanks. There are several key reasons why they lost the war. First, in the production of the Tiger, Hitler was insistent that they use all new parts, meaning that it was very difficult to repair since no other tanks shared parts with it. Next, Hitler pretty much froze production of all other tanks in order to focus on the Tiger, which took a while to build. Third, Hitler made many huge tactical errors throughout the war that inevitably lead to a loss (the Germans had pretty much lost by the time the Russians retook Stalingrad, which, last I checked, was before American built Sherman tanks entered the fray).

But let's analyze the Tiger against the Sherman, just for a moment. A Tiger's main gun could kill a Sherman in a single shot from 500 meters. A Sherman's main gun would bounce off the Tiger's armor as close as 50 meters. The only advantages Shermans had were speed and maneuverability, which a half-way decent Tiger driver could compensate for by rotating the Tiger rather than just turning the gun. Of course, luckily for us, Hitler stopped training Wehrmacht and SS troops on the Western Front, so there weren't any half-way decent Tiger drivers present until so late in the war that it was too little too late. But even with the braindead Vulksturm troops and the green Wehrmacht and SS troops that never received formal training, Shermans were still lost at odds of 3:1 even in the last years of the war (in the first years of America's entry, Shermans were lost at a frighteningly higher number). The only other advantage Shermans had was that of numbers, since Hitler had pretty much stopped producing the Panzer IV and Panzer V, which were more than a match for the Sherman, but took a literal third of the time to produce compared with the Tiger.

In summary, German tanks kicked American tanks in the ass so hard that a general surgeon had to remove the boot, but then Hitler kicked German tanks in the balls, and American tanks managed to kick them while they were down for a win.

Kasrkin Seath wrote:5. If me and my buddy were able to take a broken Ford vehicle, take everything under the hood out, replace/buff the broken pieces, put all back together and make it work in two hours with little more than a book saying what the parts are, that says something about how easy it is to repair and maintain.

Hell, most of the big three vehicles have been reknowned for the fact that anyone could repair them. Too bad its a litlle different now with all the electronics involved...

Of course, only a few sub-branches of the big three were ever truly known to last, and to be in decent condition while lasting, and those sub-branches no longer make cars like that.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:I must point out that it took 3 Shermans to defeat one Panzer.

Four Shermans, actually. And the strategy required the sacrifice of three Shermans in order to get a fourth behind the Tiger, and required for the Tiger's driver to be so stupid as to try and turn his gun as fast as the Sherman could drive, rather than turning the entire tank to match the Sherman's movement. The fact that such braindead drivers existed is a testament to Hitler's policies in the Western Front.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Oh, and the industry that later built the T-34 was helped along by the Germans, during the 20s and early 30s.

As I recall, Germans sold Soviets the tools prior to Operation: Barbossa that allowed for the T-34's round design that made it so hard to get a straight hit into.

Rasq'uire'laskar wrote:Had the Allies not resorted to terror-bombing (I stand firmly beside that label, due to Dresden) the Panzer IV and Panther tanks would have been produced in numbers able to counter what the Americans and Soviets were able to bring to bear. Of course, had the Germans pushed the production of jet engines when they first came up with them and built the Messerschmidt 282, the Allied air losses would have made bombing campaigns impossible. If the Germans had the political will to use Tabun and Sarin when they had them, the Russians would have lost a majority of their army invading through Poland and the Ukraine.

And we can blame Hitler for two of those. His terror bombings in London, which were the turning point in the Battle of Britain (they stopped bombing RAF airfields and started bombing London, allowing RAF pilots breathing room enough to get their act together; if they had not stopped bombing the airfields, the RAF would have lost through sheer attrition), inspired the terror bombings on Dresden and other places and he was the schizophrenic who kept changing his mind on whether the 282 would be a fighter or a bomber, thus delaying its production long enough for the British to get their own jet out. In the end, Hitler is pretty much the biggest fuck up on in the history of mankind.

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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by KristallNacht on Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:02 pm

Heroin is a hell of a drug.
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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by CivBase on Wed Dec 31, 2008 3:08 pm

KristallNacht wrote:Heroin is a hell of a drug.
confused

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Re: Foreign or Domestic

Post by KristallNacht on Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:59 pm

Hitler and his soldiers were on Heroin....thats why nazis were such bad-asses
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